Eyebrow Window Trim

[Michael Carter]

Not quite sure I'm happy with the way this turned out. I may have so tweaking to do before laying the fibreglass and resin.

What you see on the hardware cloth is duct tape. I needed to see how this would look covered and fix any irregularities. I've found plenty so far.

All I can say at this point is that it looks better than wood.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/EB003.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/EB002.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/EB001.jpg

[Jackpilot]

Mike
Pretty sure Nick could spare one 4U!

[Michael Carter]

Nick doesn't have any. I've been on a waiting list for the last eight months.

None of that matters now since this is not likely within spec.

[QF6228]

I guess what you have done is thought latterly and tried to achieve the best and closest look you could get to the real thing without having the real thing. I think that you have done that, Looks good mike.

Damien

[David Withers]

i tell ya what....its not bad!.....the overall shape looks fine....really good in fact.

you will just have to get a smooth surface all over....and both sides identical-ish.

[Tomlin]

Mike, this is inspiring. Can you send a photo or post one that show it before the tape was applied so I can see how the hardware cloth worked out? I am liking that idea for the iterior sub-base for my LJ45 and can invision it, but I'd love to see it on your wood frame first.

[Michael Carter]

I'd be glad to Eric, but it might be several days before I strip it off.

What I did was cut one large oversize sheet of the hardware cloth to roughly fit the two windows. I used staples to attach it to the framework and then started cutting in the center of each opening and bending.

The problem with working with inside corners is that you never can have enough material to cover the inside of the frames. Unlike wrapping a box where you always have too much material.

If applying the tape was any indication, it's going be a tough job to get the fibreglass cloth applied with no wrinkles. Too many compound angles and curves combined.

I've seriously given thought to correcting the imperfections that can be seen through the tape, and fibreglassing right over it. I don't know if that would work, but I don't see why it wouldn't.

I will likely have to cut individually fitted pieces of the fibreglass cloth to do this. One large sheet cut the way I cut the hardware cloth isn't going to work.

I wonder how they modeled these for the molds for injection or stamping?

[Tomlin]

Thanks Mike

As far as I know, these are probably vacum formed, but who knows!?

I appreciate the work you're putting into this and hopefully (and I know you will) you will find a way to make it work to your satisfaction. My plan is to use the HW cloth, cover in thin foam, and cover with a material. However, the material will probably do like what your talking about with the glass cloth as well. I just had a thought for my project- maybe I can take the whole half of the shell to the upholstry place and have them do it! :-)

[Geremy Britton]

Mike, are you planning on making the eyebrow windows see-though in other words are you going to block them up so you can't actually see through them. I thought about eyebrow lights for my 737 but i would need screens to put behind each and 4 screens is a bit overkill realy so i decided to leave them out in my sim.

[Jackpilot]

Mike
You could consider a high density styrofoam sheet 1/2"thick
Cut parts to measure, apply on the wood, and sand to quarter round the joints
The high density is not that messy to work with and you could end up with perfectly flat surfaces. Somes paints are compatible with styro.
Besides the real ones are not hard either, they are made of a sort of rubbery foam.
I have a set if you want pictures /dimensions.

[Michael Carter]

The windows will be clear, but I may come up with some sky scenes to place over them. I don't want them blacked out. The #4 window is installed in this photo. I can't find a #5, so I have to make one.

I have some of that styrofoam and was playing around with it last week. It does well with a random orbital sander but what a mess, even with a dust bag. I suppose I could do it by hand. It does shape very well though without chipping and is very tight cell-wise.

I'll have to give this solution more thought. I'm not going to settle with what it looks like now.

Thanks for the offer on the dimensions. I'm afraid they wouldn't do me any good as this is not to spec.

[Michael Carter]

I've decided to strip everything including the hardware cloth from the framing and start over. There are serious problems where some angles meet as well as where the 'roll' off of the windows meet up from window to window.

These problems need to be fixed before any sort of covering and finish work can be done.

I knew this would occur to me if I stared at it long enough after getting the hardware cloth and tape applied.

I know it doesn't look like much, but it was quite a bit of work to get this looking like it does. I'm glad it showed where the faults and errors were. Sometimes it's hard to envision what something will look like without the cover on it. There's no fixing this from the outside. It has to be stripped and re-worked. At least this gave me the opportunity to see what needs fixin'.

[Rodney]

Just thinking out loud here.....

What if you built a jig/template of your current window frame outside the sim, and used paper mache (sp) to form the moulding, then fiberglassed it?

[Michael Carter]

I don't know if that would be possible, but it gives me something else to think about.

[Shawn]

I built my glare shield with blue foam insulation, it can be shaped very easily by hand with sandpaper and a hacksaw blade. Blue foam might work well for your windows, from what I've heard it can be covered with fiberglass resin as long as it's an epoxy base. I'll be very interested in seeing how you finish the windows, I'm already thinking about enclosing my cockpit and have been wondering how I would finish the windows myself. ;)

1018 1019

[Tomlin]

Shawn, thanks for posting these pictures here- it gives me some good ideas on other areas as well as glare sheilds.

What's the puppy's name? Reminds me of my two Border Collies sniffing around in my sim hangar.

[JBaymore]

One method of making the masters for creating molds for vacume forming is using plasticine (oil based, non-drying clay). It is easy to form, takes and holds precise shapes, is pretty "hard" in the formed stage (not terribly fragile) and has a smooth surface. You can get it from many ceramics suppliers and art supply sources.

You probably could CAREFULLY form fiberglass directly over this as a mold. Or make a Hydrocal (special plaster) negative mold from the clay, and then form the fiberglass INTO that negative and far more durable mold.

Plasticine is the stuff that auto design teams use to mock up new automobiles in the design lab to see how the ideas look.

best,

................john

PS: Ceramics...... claywork...... is my professional field. ;)

[Jackpilot]

I just remember that I saw something in that vein a few years ago...still there...

http://www.avsim.com/hangar/flight/a320project/build1.html
http://www.avsim.com/hangar/flight/a320project/windowsframes.html

Maybe it can help.
Jack

[vidarf]

Just let me know if you need detail images, as I have these babies lying around:
http://www.fagerjord.org/cockpit/other_img/eyebrows.jpg

[Michael Carter]

One method of making the masters for creating molds for vacume forming is using plasticine (oil based, non-drying clay). It is easy to form, takes and holds precise shapes, is pretty "hard" in the formed stage (not terribly fragile) and has a smooth surface. You can get it from many ceramics suppliers and art supply sources.

You probably could CAREFULLY form fiberglass directly over this as a mold. Or make a Hydrocal (special plaster) negative mold from the clay, and then form the fiberglass INTO that negative and far more durable mold.

Plasticine is the stuff that auto design teams use to mock up new automobiles in the design lab to see how the ideas look.

best,

................john

PS: Ceramics...... claywork...... is my professional field. ;)

That would sure use up a big hunk of clay.

Thanks for the insight on how this is done. I guess they only had to do it once for 1800+ aircraft plus all of the 737 series that had the windows.

Shawn, where did you get the blue foam?

Thanks for all of the different ideas for tying to get a better replica of this part guys. I appreciate the input and gives me different things to try I might not have thought of before.

I don't yet know how to make it right, but I do know what's wrong.

[vidarf]

The real thing seems to be made from glass fibre, and the surface seems to be some sort of plastic. It is somewhat soft on the surface, similar to a car's wheel (the thing you hold on to while trying to bank out of a flat spin :) ). Maybe there are some sort of foam underneath?

As I said: If you need any detail images, just let me know.

About the clay idea: Remember, you don't have to fill the whole structure with clay. If you make a frame that fits, then add clay onto it to make the desired shape. Afterwards you can cover the lot with glass fibre cloth and resin. By sanding the surface, you can make it smooth. Then all there's left is to use a filler to fix minor errors, sand down and then spraypaint the whole thing. Not too dificult, actually. The hard work will be the frame. Once that's dealt with, the rest is pretty straight-forward.

Don't think difficult, think easy. :) KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! :) That's my mantra when it comes to my sim...

[Michael Carter]

The real thing seems to be made from glass fibre, and the surface seems to be some sort of plastic. It is somewhat soft on the surface, similar to a car's wheel (the thing you hold on to while trying to bank out of a flat spin :) ). Maybe there are some sort of foam underneath?

As I said: If you need any detail images, just let me know.

About the clay idea: Remember, you don't have to fill the whole structure with clay. If you make a frame that fits, then add clay onto it to make the desired shape. Afterwards you can cover the lot with glass fibre cloth and resin. By sanding the surface, you can make it smooth. Then all there's left is to use a filler to fix minor errors, sand down and then spraypaint the whole thing. Not too dificult, actually. The hard work will be the frame. Once that's dealt with, the rest is pretty straight-forward.

Don't think difficult, think easy. :) KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! :) That's my mantra when it comes to my sim...

I agree and appreciate you input. The problem is, the framework for the mold is already installed in the airframe. There is no removing it, unless you meant the hardware cloth that is ready to be stripped off. I thought you were meaning the underlying wood framing.

I think I'll let it ride for a couple of weeks and see if anything else occurs to me.

Thanks for all of your posts.

[JBaymore]

About the clay idea: Remember, you don't have to fill the whole structure with clay. If you make a frame that fits, then add clay onto it to make the desired shape. Afterwards you can cover the lot with glass fibre cloth and resin. By sanding the surface, you can make it smooth. Then all there's left is to use a filler to fix minor errors, sand down and then spraypaint the whole thing. Not too dificult, actually.

Actually the intent of the clay model is to make a temporary MOLD to form the fiberglass OVER...... and then you remove the soft clay afterwards... leaving the hard fiberglass hollow. You then re-install the fiberglass in the location it is to go. The clay can then be re-used for mor models.

This mold could be done right in place if necessary. Or you could build a flat exact duplicate of the place it is to go, and work on doing the fiberglass there. Or as I mentioned, make a negative mold from the clay with Hydrocal (special plaster...... better for working with the fiberglass.....hard).

best,

..................john

[Michael Carter]

I don't know if I would be able to remove the clay from the frame as it is now to cast the mold.

Wish you were actually here to advise.

[Jan737]

The real thing seems to be made from glass fibre, and the surface seems to be some sort of plastic. It is somewhat soft on the surface, similar to a car's wheel (the thing you hold on to while trying to bank out of a flat spin :) ). Maybe there are some sort of foam underneath?

As I said: If you need any detail images, just let me know.




About the clay idea: Remember, you don't have to fill the whole structure with clay. If you make a frame that fits, then add clay onto it to make the desired shape. Afterwards you can cover the lot with glass fibre cloth and resin. By sanding the surface, you can make it smooth. Then all there's left is to use a filler to fix minor errors, sand down and then spraypaint the whole thing. Not too dificult, actually. The hard work will be the frame. Once that's dealt with, the rest is pretty straight-forward.

Don't think difficult, think easy. :) KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! :) That's my mantra when it comes to my sim...


Hi

I saw the above post from a wile ago.
I'm looking for measurements and angles of the eyebrows, so i can make a mold.
So I hope you can help.

Best regards,
Jan Geurtsen