Rn-time error 55 when entering a route

[JonathanRichardson]

Hi Ray

Okay, you are using a different key layout version of the CDU than me, I use the N1 layout.

Are the airways never listed when you press L4 or L5 ?

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Ray

Okay, you are using a different key layout version of the CDU than me, I use the N1 layout.

Are the airways never listed when you press L4 or L5 ?

Hi Jonathan,

I tried another plan - EGKK-EFHK - and that was absolutely fine so in answer to your question, no, I do see airways listed. Just not all the time.

iI you switch to the same layout as me can you still successfully create the scenario I posted earlier? Surely the CDU is not so sensitive to layout changes that it would work with one type but not with another?

I'll try changing layouts later but if you could also do the same it would help.

Are my data files identical to yours?

[JonathanRichardson]

>I tried another plan - EGKK-EFHK - and that was absolutely fine so in answer to your question, no, I do see airways listed. Just not all the time.

Oh - okay. Well I just did not understand the point of navigating to page 2 of the route. I thought I was missing a step in your procedure, I am not sure why you only see the Airways sometimes - only many more tests will show if I can create that - it never happened here yet... but actually the Airway function is not that often used here, but it is sometimes.

>iI you switch to the same layout as me can you still successfully create the scenario I posted earlier?

I can't do that in the simulator. Only the office tomorrow.

>Surely the CDU is not so sensitive to layout changes that it would work with one type but not with another?

I would not think so. I was merely commenting you are using a different layout.

>I'll try changing layouts later but if you could also do the same it would help.

I can't do that right now I am afraid due to the hardware.

>Are my data files identical to yours?[/QUOTE]

Yes, as far as I can see.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

[Ray Proudfoot]

Oh - okay. Well I just did not understand the point of navigating to page 2 of the route. I thought I was missing a step in your procedure, I am not sure why you only see the Airways sometimes - only many more tests will show if I can create that - it never happened here yet... but actually the Airway function is not that often used here, but it is sometimes.

The point of navigating to the second page is because the 1st page is full. Am I missing something here. If you have to build a plan how do you enter legs after page 1 is full? If you're not using the airways function how do you enter a plan? Each individual waypoint? Is that realistic?

>iI you switch to the same layout as me can you still successfully create the scenario I posted earlier?

I can't do that in the simulator. Only the office tomorrow.

Okay. I've just switched to a 737-900 and changed to the N1 layout. See attached image. Still have the same problem with the supplied scenario. However, I have been able to create EGKK-EDDF as follows DVR UL9 KONAN UL607 SPI UT180 DITEL T180 OSMAX

Look forward to hearing your tests with a different layout tomorrow. That XAMAB route is a killer every time.

[JonathanRichardson]

[QUOTE=Ray Proudfoot;71709]The point of navigating to the second page is because the 1st page is full. Am I missing something here.

Hi Ray

I think so. You refered to the route page not the legs page - the first page is the main RTE entry page, then you must go to the legs pages not the RTE 2 page. If you see your screen shot it tells you you are on the RTE 2 page not the legs page.

Press 6R - ROUTE.
Press 5L.

[Here we get a whole list of all airways and we can select what we want - this appears to be one area of your problem - but I always see them]

Choose 1R - UN615.XAMAB.
Press 5L to insert UN615.XAMAB.
Press Next Page.
Press 1L. Nothing happens. Wait 15 seconds.

I think this is the problem, your instrustion above is 'Press Next Page' - don't do that, those two entries are already there at the bottom of page RTE page 1 (Boeing option). Just press LEGS page at this point. Here you can work with the plan and see the full loaded airway.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

[Ray Proudfoot]

[quote=JonathanRichardson;71716]

The point of navigating to the second page is because the 1st page is full. Am I missing something here.

Hi Ray

I think so. You refered to the route page not the legs page - the first page is the main RTE entry page, then you must go to the legs pages not the RTE 2 page. If you see your screen shot it tells you you are on the RTE 2 page not the legs page.

Press 6R - ROUTE.
Press 5L.

[Here we get a whole list of all airways and we can select what we want - this appears to be one area of your problem - but I always see them]

Choose 1R - UN615.XAMAB.
Press 5L to insert UN615.XAMAB.
Press Next Page.
Press 1L. Nothing happens. Wait 15 seconds.

I think this is the problem, your instrustion above is 'Press Next Page' - don't do that, those two entries are already there at the bottom of page RTE page 1 (Boeing option). Just press LEGS page at this point. Here you can work with the plan and see the full loaded airway.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

Hi Jonathan,

This is very confusing. You appear to be saying don't go to the 2nd Route page. But how do I get the rest of the route into the CDU? I've only included waypoints that get me as far as the middle of the English Channel. How do I insert the remainder of the route to get me to Athens?

You say to go to the Legs page but that only shows the legs that are part of the jet route I have already inserted. And remember I have only inserted two route instructions into the CDU - BOGN1M.BOGNA and UN615.XAMAB.

There is a lot more to be input and the only place it can go is on the second Route page. Otherwise there is only the option to insert two jet route entries and no more.

I have just completed a flight from EGKK-EDDF using the method already described and it was accepted. I'm convinced there is a problem with jet routes from XAMAB but because your data files are encryted I cannot read them.

Just to prove I'm not going mad please tell me how you would insert this route into the CDU...

DVR UL9 KONAN UL607 SPI UT180 DITEL T180 OSMAX

The Legs page is only there to insert or delete individual waypoints isn't it? If you wanted to insert UL9.KONAN where else would you enter it except on the Route page and if Page 1 is full then the only place it can be inserted is Page 2.

I'm very familiar with the CDU and understand that individual waypoints are inserted in the Legs page and jet routes with entry/exit points are inserted on the Route page. Surely that is how the PM one works?

[JonathanRichardson]

Hi Ray

I already replied to this, but I think it did not post for some reason. I understand now what you want to do, before I was looking at something a little different re your runtime error 55. Normal ops of the real CDU do not present you with all the airways listed (unless there is some new Boeing option for this that I / we are unaware of) you have to know your airways from the flight plan, as such, on page 2 you enter these respectively. I think we are in a real world v FS cross-over here, but I will as always check this. This is why this does not and has not cropped up in general pro usage I think. I am however looking into this, and also looking into the fact that there may be a Boeing update and perhaps it is becoming the norm to have all these airways listed? If so I was not aware of it!

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for your reply. I think we're now on the same wavelength.

Your suggestion that the CDU doesn't hold all the world's jet routes is understandable but there is a utility provided with the CDU - NavExtract.exe - and this allows the user to select / deselect various areas of the world. I assume this is to filter just the regions you want to use but does have the option to enable all of them. Presumably if this was done then all routes would be available in the PM CDU database. Otherwise, what's the point of it?

Regarding the entry of a route I have found an interesting scenario. Let's use the EGCC-EIDW flight you now love.

I select the SID from 23R at EGCC (WAL1R) and input it. However, if I then press 5L to choose the available jet routes nothing happens and if I press 5L a second time I get the dreaded run-time error 55.

But if I type L975.LIFFY it is accepted and all the relevant waypoints appear in the legs page.

So as you suggest if the route is entered by hand everything seems okay. Let me try the dreaded EGKK-LGAV route BOGNA UN615 XAMAB UL612 SRN UL153 PAR UZ904 PREKI DCT PES UM872 AME UW97 BRD UL612 ARA UB34 NEMES

Later... YES!!! I was able to enter that route. The difference is I didn't press the relevant key to show the available jet routes. I entered them directly.

Now why that happens I really don't know but if entering them directly gets around the problem then that's fine.

I guess everyone does it this way so I'd better change my routine.

Thanks for all your patience and have a Happy Christmas.

[JonathanRichardson]

> Presumably if this was done then all routes would be available in the PM CDU database. Otherwise, what's the point of it?

Not anymore - it was provided for the days when computers were running win95 / 98 at 300 to 450mzh - it is now considered not a requirement.

>Regarding the entry of a route I have found an interesting scenario. Let's use the EGCC-EIDW flight you now love.

It's is the funny thing about love, there is always a way to fall out of it.. .

>I select the SID from 23R at EGCC (WAL1R) and input it. However, if I then press 5L to choose the available jet routes nothing happens and if I press 5L a second time I get the dreaded run-time error 55.

Normal in real world is to do your DEP / ARR - select SID as you said, select the X Dept from the dept/arr page, goto legs page - check SID, then Route Page - next page - now enter route from end of SID. If you don't know the airways, then we have a problem, because what you want is for them to be listed, so you can chose them (understandable and very useful) but alas not how it is on the real a/c (to my original knowledge and also now cross-checked)

>But if I type L975.LIFFY it is accepted and all the relevant waypoints appear in the legs page.

Okay - at least that is something, it is operating how it should in the real world then.

>So as you suggest if the route is entered by hand everything seems okay.

Okay.

Let me try the dreaded EGKK-LGAV route BOGNA UN615 XAMAB UL612 SRN UL153 PAR UZ904 PREKI DCT PES UM872 AME UW97 BRD UL612 ARA UB34 NEMES

>Later... YES!!! I was able to enter that route. The difference is I didn't press the relevant key to show the available jet routes. I entered them directly.

Good - I am afraid perhaps we missled you by showing you the airways! But perhaps it might give us a new idea for later.

>Now why that happens I really don't know but if entering them directly gets around the problem then that's fine.

Very good.

>I guess everyone does it this way so I'd better change my routine.

Ideally yes, but I suspect we can also change it to show the list, but I am not sure if we should or what problems it can cause.

>Thanks for all your patience and have a Happy Christmas. [/QUOTE]

You too!

Currently on route to Dublin, but for another reason -

Regards
Jonathan Richardson
Project Magenta

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Jonathan,

> Not anymore - it was provided for the days when computers were running win95 / 98 at 300 to 450mzh - it is now considered not a requirement.

Ah yes, the good old days when no-one would need more than 640Kb of RAM. Bill Gates' words, not mine.

It's is the funny thing about love, there is always a way to fall out of it.. .

I've just fallen in love with this new system I've just found. No more 55's!

Normal in real world is to do your DEP / ARR - select SID as you said, select the X Dept from the dept/arr page, goto legs page - check SID, then Route Page - next page - now enter route from end of SID. If you don't know the airways, then we have a problem, because what you want is for them to be listed, so you can chose them (understandable and very useful) but alas not how it is on the real a/c (to my original knowledge and also now cross-checked)

Thanks for listing the correct procedure. Fortunately I do know the airways as I use VRoute and that uses the Navigraph monthly updates also shared by PM. The information was there all the time. I was just using the CDU in an incorrect way. But you might want to investigate why you get that error 55 on some routes.

Currently on route to Dublin, but for another reason

Checking the ILS perhaps? I saw your other message about the mismatch on 28. I'd forgotten about that. AFCAD is very useful for amending such things.

I've just completed EGKK-LGAV and it went well. The only glitch was a couple of waypoints in the BOGNA SID where a identically named pair from a couple of thousand miles away were incorrectly inserted. Not sure how to get around that problem but checking the SID before inserting any more data will identify them.

All in all a pretty good day.