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03-25-2008, 03:03 AM #11
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- San Diego, CA USA
- Posts
- 57
Simfloppy,
Trevor is referring to MaxVUE from CAE Systems. The MaxVUE description is at:
http://www.cae.com/www2004/Products_...s/maxvue.shtml.
Steve
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03-25-2008, 07:55 AM #12
Just to add a quick note regarding outside visualization. First of all, like Trevor said, unless you go with a collimating mirror setup, you're not going to get the 3D effect (less real otherwise). But to get the best results out of a simple screen system, the screen needs to be at least 10 to 12 feet from the pilots eyes.
My point (I guess which really was not that quick) is, projecting on the canopy or close to it will have an awkward look and an unreal feel to it. You need the distance of the screen to fake out your brain.
Matt O.
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03-25-2008, 08:57 AM #13
I am heading to the dentist but should be able to catch up with you shortly. Sorry you are right MaxVue is how it is spelled, My Bad!
As for looking through the glass, I installed plexi windows in my sim for that reason, the screen farther away and looking through the window to (infinity) is a must. I wouldn't run my sim without the windows in place, it acts as a beam splitter giving you that little extra reality.
Your going to have to play with a projector and a setup to see if this is going to work the way you want it to.
I will catch up with you soon.
Trev________________________
Trevor Hale
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03-25-2008, 01:07 PM #14
Ok lets recap.
Most simulator builders will spend hundreds of hours surfing the net until you find something that resembles what you want to do. It is not an easy task, but you will have to walk before you run. and yu can assemble all the ideas and combine them into your project.
Take this one step at a time. I can't answer all your questions at once.. They will be answered in time, the idea here is just to get you the basics so we can build on that. First find something that you can start to copy, and make your own modifications as you progress. In my simulator as long as I can't see anything out the windows but the projected image, I feel like I am really flying. Once I can see a wall or a wire or something out side of the cockpit, it ruins the experience.
You are going to spend a lot of time experimenting with mirrors, projection screens, and projectors until you can get something that works to your satisfaction. we are faced with many challenges in sim pit building, and the most important thing to remember is never get discouraged. It will NOT work the first time. persistence is rewarding.
Let me know where you want to go with this next, as I am a little lost at this point as to where you are and what you still want to learn about.
Trev________________________
Trevor Hale
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03-25-2008, 05:09 PM #15
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- USA
- Posts
- 14
Hi Guys,
Many thanks for all the helpful replies
You especially Trevor thanks for the awesome info.
I have felt a little bit disappointed now as like Matt Olieman said you need the screen positioned 10 to 12 feet away.
The thing is, that link that Fairford gave of the Barco dome, when sitting in there you wouldn't be 10 to 12 feet away from the screen as from the picture on the Barco site it seems like your only like a feet or two away.
The problem is my brother wants to just get 1 720p projector and use it to do rear projection to a 100 inch screen that's built on a curved projection frame. He believes he can get about 120-140 degrees field of view. He wants to sit about 2 to 4 feet from the screen. He doesn't want to use a cockpit, but instead a table with a force feedback joystick.
The problem with the above setup, would be that you would still feel that your inside your room, because your perhiperal vision would be able to see outide the area of the curved screen. You would see your table, cables, and the immersive just won't be there. Sure you have a great big screen that's immersive but your just not totally immersed.
But then my setup was to make the canopy the screen, but again looking ahead towards the canopy from inside the cockpit the screen would be about 2 feet from me. But then looking to my left and right and ceiling i would be about 0.5 feet to 1 feet away and that's where my brother says from that fact that your so close to the screen your eyes can't adjust and update to that kind of environment and you would get motion sickness and eyestrain.
But i wonder still if this is true, as i used to play around with shutterglasses on a 20 inch CRT monitor. When i would bring my eyes right up to the monitor, about a few inches away. I could see the game world extend off into the distance and it was so immersive, that i always wished that the CRT monitor was like 100 inches curved.
Even when i bring my eyes close to a 20 inch monitor. Without using shutterglasses the effect is also so immersive. But my brother said that if you were to project onto a canopy. In the way that i'm saying, then the imserviness would be incredible, but only for a few minutes as your eyes just wouldn't be able take anymore as you would get motion sickness. He said that's why the HMD's from the late 80's early 90's period would utilise this similar technique, which is why everyone would get eystrain and motion sickness.
Another thing, my brother says the barco dome uses anamorphic lenses and they cost about $6500 and you need one for each projector and there's five in that setup. But Sol7 can do similar effects very close to that setup on a great budget but the immersive factor wouldn't be as high as that.
Another thing, if i was to project onto a canopy then because the screen is on the canopy then it's possible that my eyes from being that close may actually harm your eyes after long periods of time, is that true?
I wondred if the projector was used without mirrors as that way there would be a long throw distance. Which means your eyes wouldn't be too close from the actual beam. But then the brightness of the projector would be lost and you need a lot of brightness for the picture to be high quality. So using a mirror for a short throw from the projector would give you very high brightness. But really brightness should only be an inssue when planning to beam to a huge curved screen. The fact that i want to beam to a canopy, which if you were to measure it up it would come to no more than 40 inches. So then that would mean the projector could be far away. Then the brightness wouldn't hurt my eyes.
One last thing, from the link i gave in my previous post of that merlin flight simulator. The canopy shown in the second picture. From the shape of it, it seems i could just use 2 projectors, wouldn't you agree? As i could use sol7 to warp the image to one half (from the center of the ceiling down to the side) and do this for each side, would that be possible?
The problem with all this is why my brother said no body has done it yet. Because you need mathematical algorthims to be made to line it up, just right because your so close to the screen, to not get eye strain or motion sickness. The distortion and depth has to be mathematically aligned. Is this true?
Sorry for all the questions once again
any help much appreciated from you guys
Many thanks
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03-25-2008, 06:37 PM #16
Alright, Here we go, and we will try to answer these questions a little better this time.
SE BELOW.
And thats all she wrote. I can't imagine your going to get any firther with more questions. Much of this hobby is trial and error. No guarentees here, however in theory this should work, I do not claim any responsibility if your eyes fall out of your head, or if it doesn't work, I am just saying. Test each little bit and move forward bit by bit and see if what you are doing works.
Best regards,
Trev
________________________
Trevor Hale
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03-25-2008, 08:05 PM #17
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- USA
- Posts
- 14
Hello Trevor,
Again many, many thanks for getting back to me, it has been really very helpful. I just got two last questions before i plan to do all the reading and building i can.
in the last post you wrote
'This is what i suggested in my first post to you. reduce the number of projectors to 3 one in front and one on each side, and warp 1/2 of the canopy with the left side projector and the same thing on the right side.'
I was wondering if it's possible to warp 1/2 of each sides canopy. using 2 of the projectors but not using a third for the front? So instead of a projector on the front, you use sol7 to warp the left side to cover the front half as well and you do the same with the other projector. So just 2 projectors in total, is that possible?
Lastly, do you know of any cockpits like i am describing with the projection being beamed right on the canopy? I have not seen any, anywhere.
Many thanks in advance
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03-25-2008, 08:37 PM #18
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03-26-2008, 02:41 PM #19
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- USA
- Posts
- 14
Hi trevor,
Many thanks for getting back to me
Again sorry for all the questions, when i think they've all been answered and i go and do some research then i have all sorts of questions running through my mind. I hope you can please answer these. Many thanks
I plan on making some mock ups of my simulator plans. Should i go then for 3x 1024x768 those are 4:3 ratio projectors right?
Does it matter if the projector can do both 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratio?
Do you know which projectors are good for this?
The reason i ask for the projectors to do both aspect ratios is because sometimes i just want to disconnect the projectors and point them to a front projection screen for watching 3d movies.
As i am going with 3 projectors, i only need then 1 computer, 1X TH2GO, 1x SOL7 software, am i correct in thinking that i don't need another computer and i don't need wideview as i am only going for the 3 projector setup?
Do you know where i can have a plastic canopy made?
I did some searches for plastic molding and injection molding but i couldn't really find anything. I wonder if it's possible to start by just getting a projection screen and wrapping it around some supports. And if all works then go to get a canopy made?
I take it that i don't need mirrors for my setup?
One thing i am a little confused with
As i plan on making one seamless cockpit canopy with no borders. You know on a harriers cockpit, you have like window panes. Like the window is separated by the metal frames where the glass fits into. So you have one glass and then one in front and another to the right. Well maybe a harrier is not quite like that but other fighter planes are. Well what i am having a hard time understanding is when you use the 3 projectors to beam onto the canopy then wouldn't each flight sims plane being chosen within the game have to be reconfigured using sol7?
Because every planes cockpit is different and you would get distortion and a messed up picture, you wouldn't know where your looking at. Which is why an HMD is better suited for this, but then they cost hundreds of thousands for the very best ones that still don't offer total immersion.
My brother said that the military have most definitely tried my idea and probably doesn't work very well which is the reason you don't see anyone making one and which is why they went with the dome idea.
I thought if i wasn't to create a canopy, but instead build a metal frame which 4 projection screens could be slotted into. Then i use three projectors. One for the front and the other two for the left and right sides. Then use sol7 to warp 1/2 of the sides to half of the ceiling on each side like you said. But then i wonder if your going to do that, then the projector will be beamed onto the metal frame as well, from inside the cockpit you wouldn't see what was being projected as it hits the metal framing and then the rest of the picture would continue on to the other frame. That's like real life isn't it?
But again for each game there will be problems with the perception. and it would have to be manually reconfigured. Is that right?
One other thing, my brother wants to do the rear projection setup with a curved screen, but he wants to use sol7. You said you don't use sol7 so is there any point for my brother to use it as well? As he's not even going to build a cockpit whereas i am going to.
You are rear projecting as well right?
I saw this helicopter simulator. Where it had a helicopter cockpit and underneath there was a single projector placed on the floor projecting about a meter away, to a curved projection screen. I didn't notice any shadows on the screen being projecting from the cockpit, is this a good setup or should you always do rear projection for cockpit simulations.
I hope to hear from you
Many many thanks
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03-26-2008, 03:06 PM #20
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