MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

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09-20-2009, 05:24 AM
manhattan

MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Hi Folks.

I want to build a motion platform and wonder if anyone has tackled this?
Firstly, how are the movement signals from the joystick transferred to the motors moving the platform? Is it a unit that can be plugged into a port on the PC? Can this item be purchased? How would it interface with electric motors, and how do they lift/lower the platform? The motors must change polarity to be able to turn either way.
I presume that pistons must come into play somehow, but cant see how they would be attached to motors??

Simtechnik in Switzerland offer motors, cables and interface for £1000bp, but this is way over priced. No structure or support legs are supplied - just some bits! If you have £12000bp spare, they will build a unit and ship it for another £100bp shipping costs!! Their website shows units under construction, but as they work from what looks like a domestic garage, their opening shot of an impressive building seems out of sync?

Any comments/contacts or help anyone?

TONY.
10-14-2009, 01:14 AM
Mirage

1 Attachment(s)

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by manhattan

Hi Folks.

I want to build a motion platform and wonder if anyone has tackled this?
Firstly, how are the movement signals from the joystick transferred to the motors moving the platform? Is it a unit that can be plugged into a port on the PC? Can this item be purchased? How would it interface with electric motors, and how do they lift/lower the platform? The motors must change polarity to be able to turn either way.
I presume that pistons must come into play somehow, but cant see how they would be attached to motors??

Simtechnik in Switzerland offer motors, cables and interface for £1000bp, but this is way over priced. No structure or support legs are supplied - just some bits! If you have £12000bp spare, they will build a unit and ship it for another £100bp shipping costs!! Their website shows units under construction, but as they work from what looks like a domestic garage, their opening shot of an impressive building seems out of sync?

Any comments/contacts or help anyone?

TONY.

Already I have 3DOF simulator based in hydraulic power unit, hudraulic flow is controlled by proportional valve operated +24v, input signal +/-10vDC
To controlling the motion base I install the experimental board K8061 http://www.velleman.eu/ot/en/product/view/?id=364910 but problem is hydraulic valve not response for control voltage from board K8061 analog output +/-10vDC (there is some noise from proportional valve after connection board)
-where is problem ? what kind of signal must to be aside from +/- 10vDC ? frequency(Hz), curence (A) etc…

Best regards Den.
10-14-2009, 08:33 AM
IanH1960

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Hi Mirage,

Welcome aboard....

The data sheet for your velleman board indicates the analogue output range is 0 to 10V, not +/-10V - might this have anything to do with the problem?

Ian
10-14-2009, 12:32 PM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanH1960

Hi Mirage,
Welcome aboard....

The data sheet for your velleman board indicates the analogue output range is 0 to 10V, not +/-10V - might this have anything to do with the problem?

Ian

Thanks Ian 4 invitation!

I try to connect by opposite connection:
Valve positive “+ INPUT” => “GND” k8061 board
Valve negative “- INPUT” =>“+10vDC” k8061 board
- motion base have little affect, theoretically if connecting another “+10V” pins to the “GND” and separate all wiring connection with diode bridges, by software you can give order change the direction for Analog outputs +/-10V ?! good idea ?

I try to connect valve to standart +5v&+9v but platform not have any response, how I can run the valve ?

Best regards Den
10-14-2009, 02:39 PM
turbopropdriver

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Wouldn't you want the output for the motion to be taken from FS data?

If you simply connect motion up to the stick won't it get out of sequence with the sim?

Dean
10-17-2009, 07:25 AM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbopropdriver

Wouldn't you want the output for the motion to be taken from FS data?

If you simply connect motion up to the stick won't it get out of sequence with the sim?

Dean

Good question!!!
By finally I planning make self-reacting motion base (with some “motion rules” switch) , for example if I run NFS-series game motion base move by “on ground” rules, if I run MFS-game, base EASY-switched to the flying rules ;-)
Keeping in mind this idea I looking some solution how to better connect feedback signal from position sensors: -directly to proportional valve or through k8061? in first position give us just "safety mood" motion, second option give us maximum option (eg. craft position) but problem is how to take this signal from K8061 in PC ? It’s need develop some special software to k8061? Or I can find more EASY solution?
-also now I need some information about position sensor feedback setup and configuration, when platform start run safe, next level is connecting manual control devices and make loop: joystick=>motion base=>position sensors=>motion base
For example if I use three analog inputs for position sensors, we have another five analog inputs and Logitech wireless joystick, and now very important question:
a) how many outputs have joystick? and how connect it for controlling motion base directly ?
b) how make better and correct connection "Joystic+PC<=>motion base+position sensors" ?
c) ... or I need for it some another devices or software?
d) Where I can find some technical information how to connect “joystick-->Motion base->position sensors->motion base”

-Plz can you give me some advice, idea, example, diagrams…

Best regards Den.
10-17-2009, 03:57 PM
Roland

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Hi Den,

During my early experiments with motion platforms, I also used the joystick axis as input for platform movement, together with signals from force feedback stick. It works, but lacks some realism, and easily leads to false motion cues. But you can try it out, so info can be found on my website:
http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform.htm
http://www.simprojects.nl/Interfacing_1.htm

More advanced interfacing methods can be found at
http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform_iii.htm and subsequent pages.
10-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Mirage

1 Attachment(s)

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Hi Den,

During my early experiments with motion platforms, I also used the joystick axis as input for platform movement, together with signals from force feedback stick. It works, but lacks some realism, and easily leads to false motion cues. But you can try it out, so info can be found on my website:
http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform.htm
http://www.simprojects.nl/Interfacing_1.htm

More advanced interfacing methods can be found at
http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform_iii.htm and subsequent pages.

Hellow Roland

Thanks for helpful information !
-present time I work with proportional hydraulic valve, and have some interesting idea (and some questions :)), plz check the attached file…
10-18-2009, 12:14 PM
IanH1960

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Hi Mirage,

Do you have the full spec number of the valve you are using?

Ian
10-18-2009, 01:56 PM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanH1960

Hi Mirage,

Do you have the full spec number of the valve you are using?

Ian

No :roll: it's scratched by manufacturer of simulator, there just ATOS writing.
10-18-2009, 06:10 PM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanH1960

Hi Mirage,

Do you have the full spec number of the valve you are using?

Ian

Hellow Ian !
- by very hard way I find spec number "atos" DLHZO-TE-040-L53 / M / 31
10-19-2009, 10:29 AM
IanH1960

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Hi Mirage,

According to the valve data sheet the "TE" reference indicates a valve with integrated electronics. Is the card in your diagram attached to the value?

Assuming it is, the data sheet indicates the connections are as per section 6 and I would imagine the important inputs are the +/- V demand inputs (pins D & E) and the 0V zero (pin C), however I don't think there is a great deal of explanation given as to how the three pins should be used. Perhaps the flow demand is the voltage difference across D & E (up to +/- 10V) and C can be used to set zero?

Out of interested here is the data sheet for the separate controller for the valve - have a look at diagram 11 which shows the overall control system - I would guess the integrated controller on your valve is similar.

http://www.hydropack.nl/fileadmin/pdf/02G140.pdf

It looks like a closed loop position control of the spool using a position feedback from the built-in transducer and a PID calculation for solenoid current?

Have you asked Atos for clarification of the input signals for your TE version?

Ian

EDIT - on second reading I don't think pin C is for setting zero - it looks like a common ground reference.
10-21-2009, 02:57 AM
Mirage

Re: 3DOF-MOTION control

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanH1960

Hi Mirage,
According to the valve data sheet the "TE" reference indicates a valve with integrated electronics. Is the card in your diagram attached to the value?
Assuming it is, the data sheet indicates the connections are as per section 6 and I would imagine the important inputs are the +/- V demand inputs (pins D & E) and the 0V zero (pin C), however I don't think there is a great deal of explanation given as to how the three pins should be used. Perhaps the flow demand is the voltage difference across D & E (up to +/- 10V) and C can be used to set zero?
Out of interested here is the data sheet for the separate controller for the valve - have a look at diagram 11 which shows the overall control system - I would guess the integrated controller on your valve is similar.
http://www.hydropack.nl/fileadmin/pdf/02G140.pdf
It looks like a closed loop position control of the spool using a position feedback from the built-in transducer and a PID calculation for solenoid current?
Have you asked Atos for clarification of the input signals for your TE version?
Ian
EDIT - on second reading I don't think pin C is for setting zero - it looks like a common ground reference.

Thanks Ian 100-x for helping !!! sorry for delay answer, to answer I need study and collect some information.

Yesterday I visit local market try find proportional valve, in market I find just standard “bang-bang” valves, but proportional valve I have to order and wait minimum two weeks, it’s very long time …, and I need your advice and some solution?! there is some way to using normally (NO-NC) “bang-bang” hydraulic valve, and get some good result to move 3DOF? for example following by this knowledge

Quote:

http://www.redoaksys.com/roksdev/ROK..._Hydraulic.htm

- I make some test, for main coil I connect 12vDC, cylinders start move with hard hydraulic impact, but when I connect 7,5 vDC cylinders start move by normally way(Slow , and without hydraulic impact) getting this practical result, I have some questions for guru:
1) if it’s very easy controlling directional valve by “CURRENT”
1.1) - why we need to use “INTEGRAL ELECTRONIC” (difficult find in market)
- We can use normally NO/NC (bang-bang) valve and “EXTERNAL” assemble power supply with regulating current from “0” to “12vD, to regulating hydraulic flow?!
1.2) - We don’t need “POSITION TRANSDUSER” we can close loop with external magnetic “POSITION SENSOR” it’s correct?
- can you give me some more idea about “open loop & close loop” plz. ?! if I understand correct idea, to closing loop
a) I can connect magnetic sensor output voltage (-/+10vDC) sequential with proportional valve control input +/-10vDC ? (pin D,E) from controller come just digital signal 10vDC ON/OFF

b) in my situation with K-8061 board I have connect magnetic position sensors to analog input: - and by programming way give some order for e.g. – if for analog input (from magnetic position sensor) come 5V - for analog output give maximum current (e.g. 10vDC) if analog input come (1vDC (down position) OR 9vDC(upper position) => reduce the current until 0vDCand perplex the program step-by step, or variant
c) from your side ;)

Best regards Den
10-21-2009, 04:53 AM
Mirage

1 Attachment(s)

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Plz.check the attached file, there is some more configuration....
10-21-2009, 05:47 AM
manhattan

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage

Plz.check the attached file, there is some more configuration....

No more No more!!

My wife thinks I am crazy already!! No bungie cords, no timber struts/frames, no noisy motors etc, no sitting in an 'X Files' enclosure!! no going to college to learn about advanced electronics!!

I am going the transducer route using a large amplifier, and several speakers modified to act as transducers. The cockpit may not move, but the pilot will truly think it is!! I will be flying an Otter which makes this sort of racket anyway!

Good luck to the geeks and purists!

TONY.
10-21-2009, 06:26 AM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by manhattan

....... using a large amplifier, and several speakers modified to act as transducers

plus hydraulic oil station approx300L.+pump motor not less than 18KWt. Plus 2 subwoofers + 2 x3kW Vibration motors + 2 x3kW wind blower = full option Environmental Effects (EFX) for you (as pilot) and for yours neighbors for feeling full option life near with airport ;)
10-21-2009, 06:32 AM
manhattan

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage

plus hydraulic oil station approx300L.+pump motor not less than 18KWt. Plus 2 subwoofers + 2 x3kW Vibration motors + 2 x3kW wind blower = full option Environmental Effects (EFX) for you (as pilot) and for yours neighbors for feeling full option life near with airport ;)

What's all this??????????
10-21-2009, 07:09 AM
Mirage

Re: MOTION PLATFORMS!!!!! can U build wun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by manhattan

What's all this??????????

All this is just some options of 5D-cinema theatres
3D = 3D motion picture e.g. IMAX, DOLBY-3D, REAL-D theatres
4D = plus motion base
5D = Environmental Effects (EFX) wind, smoke, strobe light, shakers ,vibrators, leg ticklers, but kickers etc…
There is some link http://modlabs.net/node/1532 one Russian men fabricate some kind device, sound frequencies between vibrator and subwoofer, following by replying posts http://www.vegalab.ru/forum/showthre...?t=2566&page=7 sound you can’t here just feel… !!! And neighbors cannot understand why dishes, plate & tea-cups jingle and shifting ? :)
EFX-devices is newsworthy subject to discuss about !

P.S. if I'm kidding, plz. don't panic, because my English is not well ;)
10-21-2009, 01:48 PM
IanH1960

Re: 3DOF-MOTION control

Den,

I'm afraid my knowledge of hydraulic valves does not deserve the title of Guru!

However a couple of things to think about. If the force applied by the solenoid is proportional to current (just as the torque generated by an electric motor is proportional to current) then holding a set spool position will require raising the current to move the solenoid and then reducing it again when it reaches the desired position so that the spool movement stops where it is required to. If the set position is changing all the time then the problem of controlling solenoid force becomes quite complicated.

Also if the loading on the spool (say from varying hydraulic pressure) changes then the solenoid force must be adusted to balance the forces - otherwise the spool moves away from the set position and the flow rate changes.

Some sort of local closed loop control is probably required in the valve because varying current (or voltage) does not directly control solenoid position - it probably controls solenoid force, and this force must be varied sensitively to move and hold the spool position (especially in the face of varying hydraulic loading - although the data sheet indicates these are not pressure compensated valves, ie self adjusting in the face of changing line pressure).

There are several ways of actuating motion platform movement - but they will all have in common the same aim of producing as smooth a motion as is possible. Otherwise the platform ride will not feel right for the pilot. I would guess that choppy hydraulic controls might result in flow rate (and so speed) changes in the actuators that will transfer through into a bumpy motion of the platform.

Hydraulic systems are well known for their smoothness, but I guess there is a lot going on inside a proportional flow control valve (even when it isn't a pressure compensated servo valve).

But then again - I could be wrong!

Ian