That's great Nax !!!!!
So the TQ foam was needed after all :)
Hey keep posting pics ;)
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That's great Nax !!!!!
So the TQ foam was needed after all :)
Hey keep posting pics ;)
Hehe.. THey were so nice I just couldn't throw them all away, and finally I found use for some.
I Havent posted any pics of the chairs mounted in the cockpit. Here is a pic that show the seats in place and at the same time show how tight fit the sim is in my room. If i'm to put on more weight now, I have to send my son behind the MIP when it's needed :D
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...t/DSC_0217.jpg
This other pic is when trying on the homemade rails for the first time. Fit like a glow.
Rails made by my good friend K. He's got a full cockpit as well and is very very handy.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...t/DSC_0221.jpg
Have a nice weekend!
Lets light up the sixpacks....
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...2122010257.jpg
Took over a year to find out why they wouldn't work. Turned out to be a couple of cables connected upside down.
Wow!! Very nice!!
OOOOO yeaaaaaaa :D
That's nice, just in time before you light up the Xmas tree !!!!!
Hey Nax,
Wait for more news during the following days about the cockpitsonic DST... something is happening in that field ;) hopefully we will have news during the next week :)
Hey Nax,
you have a great project, congrats! I like your door ;-)
Will you tell me more about your rails solutions.
I have two old crew seats from a 707 and it is nearly impossible to find rails for it.
Regards
Jan
Hi there.
When I bought my chairs from desert-air, they said it would come with rails, but they didn't. As I understand, many others have not got their promised rails as well.
I have a good friend that have a great workshop for metal, wood and nylon. He made me some rails after I made some sketches.
I have been unable to upload pics to my photobucket account with this new company PC, but made a Picasa account today to finally be able to share some stuff again. Sorry it took so long.
I use sketchup for all my drawing:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TR.../s912/rail.jpg
Here is a pic that show that the rails were built with 3 pieces of metal:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TR...E/DSC00885.JPG
I should have a few more pics. Ill have a look for them now that I know I can share them.
Are you planning on J-rails?
Any idea about the costs?
JWS
I will install my new yokes in a few weeks, and plan to take the seatrails to level 2 in the same operation since they have to be removed for a while anyway.
Here is the plan to get the sideways movement without having the actual J-rails (they are EXPENCIVE)
I will moult my rails on a pair of rails going the other direction and make a J in my MDF base. A bolt/pin from the seats wil go into the J securing that the sideways movement cannot be done unless the seat is in full back position. The J in the MDF will have nylon along the sides.
Hope and think this will work.
Cost will be equal to 0$
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TR...ils_simple.jpg
Thats a very good idea, and should, in theory, work perfectly fine! Good luck with it anyway!
Got started with the dual yoke assembly last night, but need to extend the center rod. It turned out 3,5 cm to short, so I have done some bad measuring in the preproject.
That beside, it works and seem good.
Time will show if my idea on single point pulling gas strut works out well. Here you see the assembly on top of the basemodule it will be mounted in.
Holes will be cut today and I'll start with the wiering. Since the midsetion have to be redone, I will get a week or two delay.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...3012011287.jpg
Looking forward to fly the sim by yokes instead of a gamepad. I guess I will start spending more time behind "the wheel" than behind the MIP when it's ready, and start doing some real flights. Until now it's only been testflights even I did a flight on VATSIM in april only by autopilot. We can call that a testflight to to keep the books clean.
Looks nice NAX, imagine the things you can do with LEGO hey. :lol:
JWS
Great job Nax !!!!
Keep us posted man, I am really interested in your dual yoke and J rails projects ;)
Excelent progress !!!!
Here is a few details on the construction of the crossbar:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...ar_foring2.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...bar_foring.jpg
The gaskets i use for bearings is made from 20mm nylon of some kind. Industrial plastics anyway.
It' very useful for this purpose reading the datasheets, so I hope they will last a long time. Found it in a container (dumpster) outside a company dealing with all sorts of plastic materials. cost 0€.
NAX, very interesting. Please keep us posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by nax228
Few questions.
What exactly is "moult"?
How do you realize the side ways movement (wheels?)? Same question: how will the seat move backwards?
What kind of nylon do you use and where to get it?
Costs 00 seems optimistic.
Regards,
JWS
PS Have you seen the J-rails by Revolution-Simproducts?
Moult should be mount... typo.
Nylon: I got it from the dumpster outside www.vink.com. Dont know exactly what type it is, but sure seems appropriate. Ideally we should use POM.
I found this piece:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...4122010264.jpg
We'll see about the sideways movement. I thought of using small ballbearings, but now i'm not sure. The nylon has got really good sliding characteristics... Idea in progress.
Backwards movement is done on the already mounted rails. It's a matter of placing and fixing these rails to something that moves sideways. Another set of rails or maybe nylon?
I have seen the rev-sim rails and a friend have ordered. Will be cool to see them up close, but I think I will be satisfied with a selfproduced solution.
cya
Quote:
Originally Posted by nax228
POM ??
JWS
Well, you asked
POM. Maybe you prefer Polyoxymethylene? heheQuote:
What kind of nylon do you use and ....?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene_plastic
Oh, the old polyoxymethylene, why didn't you say so in the first place. :lol:
JWS
So I have this idea that the force against the yokes could be made by only applying gas struts pulling on the structure from only one direction.
This will also make the trim-action easy to make... Remember that this is the idea ;)
Thought a lot on the physics and have made some drawings. Here is how I want to make the trim assembly.
If the yoke stands in its neutral position, the gas struts and "lip" on the crossbar will stand horizontally from the crossbar. Gas struts attached to the Trim-assembly's' elevator witch is also in mid position. Moving the yokes back and forward will apply force from the gas struts that want to pull the lip back to it's neutral position.
When I use my trim buttons this will activate the engine running the threaded rod, making the elevator that hold the gas struts up or down, thereby adjusting the neutral point for the yokes, and the yoke will move back or forward together with the aircrafts trim indicator.
I will base this on steady trim movement, and will adjust the engines speed by finding the right voltage to operate with to match the aircrafts trimming.
Here is the drawings:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS..._assembly1.jpg
.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS..._assembly2.jpg
.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS..._assembly3.jpg
.
So this is how the neutral position looks like when the elevator is UP and DOWN.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...ssembly_up.jpg
.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...embly_down.jpg
After todays dumpserhunt I got all the parts I need to start building the mechanism. I got the rod and bearings at home, but look at my nice findings in the dumpster at the wheelchairdealer:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...7012011291.jpg
That engine is precisely what I was looking for, but this one runs 24V. I hope 12V gives enough revs to make it work. If not I have to go to the scrapyard for cars and buy an old motor for windowvipers. Exactly the same construction, but run on 12V AND I have to pay 20-30€ for it... This one was for free :) and thats how i like it.
Just stopped by another dumpster an found my second treasure for the day, 2 spare computers, exactly the same as I use in my setup. I burned one computer before xmas, but had one for spare... now I have two for spare.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6cfkT1JgF-0/TS...7012011292.jpg
Hope to have the construction done by the weekend, but thats maybe to much to hope for. Anyway I have to make it before the yokes goes in.
Have a nice weekend!!
PS: If anyone recognize the motor, I found it on Sketchup warehouse, made by someone that would use it in his C172 cockpitbuild :) Now I have used it in a cockpitbuild as well. Thanks mate!!
Prototype finished. only need to weld a piece of flat iron to the nuts.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...8012011293.jpg
I'll try to do some tests tomorrow.
No tests preformed, but did some building. Just a few quick updatepics.
This is the nylonbearing that hold the construction. A similar setup on the other side, but still miss the centerpiece.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...9012011300.jpg
.
Elevator installed:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...9012011302.jpg
.
Couldnt get the elevator small enough to fit under the floor, but like this, the motor will stand inside the CDU-bay and thats OK.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...9012011304.jpg
Turned out my idea was to easy. Here is the scenario: I take off and pull yoke back, the gas struts would give force to the yokes. If I then trim with this assembly to equal the force, the elevators on the aircraft would still be in up position when trim is applied. So I had to find a solution to let the elevators come to neutral as the trim is applied...
The assembly is turning out quite complicated as new problems shows up, but I hope i can still come trough. The problem mentioned above was pointed out from a friend, and I just had not thought about the fact that the trim and the elevators are different components :D Well... If you see other things I might have missed out, please point them out to me.
Made a little animation of the latest drawings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxCh892wIE
Hi Nax.
When you pull back or push on the yoke it will be moving the elevators but not the stabaliser. The trim moves the stabaliser. So on takeoff you would pull back to start rotation. As you trim, the amount you are required to deflect the elevator gets smaller because the stabaliser moves (which means you slowly return the yoke to neutral), so when trimmed correctly the elevators are at a neutral position with the stabaliser. It is the stabaliser that does all the hard work but it is only controlled through the trim. The autopilot controls the stabliser for pitch control (at half the rate of the manual input) and doesnt move the elevators. This means when the autopilot is in control, the yoke doesnt move back and forth.
However the amount of resistance in pulling and pushing the yolk will increase/decrease with airspeed.
The ailerons are different because they are the only control surfaces on the wing AND the autopilot controls them. So trimming the ailerons will result in a deflected yoke. As the autopilot controls the ailerons the yolk will also move.
The rudder is similar to the aileron in both trim and deflection.
I believe what I have put above is correct but if I am wrong will someone please correct me, because this is how I will be building mine!
Tom.
This is very good info Tom.
Another guy also pointed out some of the things you mention,so I will have to reconsider the whole project. I have not gathered enough info before I started the project... da ja vu...
The end sections of the yoke assembly was delivered to the welder yesterday to fit a new centerpiece, so time to get something more done with this trimthingy is running out and I guess the only thing my construction can do "as-is" is to function as force feedback in manual mode.
Do you want to share your ideas Tom?
Hi Nax. I am happy to share ideas, but I dont really have plans and things.
First I am building for a 767, so mine might be different to yours in a few details, but I expect not.
As described above I plan on making the yoke move for ailerons but not for elevators. This will be done by moving the neutral point of the centering mechanism.
I havent properly designed this yet but this is what I think I will be doing. Like you my yokes are linked using cable pulleys, so I will attach the cable to two gas struts. These will work on the same principle of your elevator centering mechanism where in one direction one gas strut moves freely while the other provides pressure to push back to neutral. The gas struts will be mounted on a moving frame which will be moved by a lead screw and motor. This will allow me to move the neutral point, similar to your current elevator motor.
The aileron trim will move the motor which in turn moves the neutral point, so the yoke moves. This looks great but will be a problem for flight sim because it expects the yoke the be neutral when it applies trim, as any yoke movement from the centre is applied on top of the trim for the ailerons. To see what I mean start a flight, trim the aileron away from neutral. The aircraft starts to bank at a certain rate. Then apply yoke aileron as you would expect it to appear when the trim is in place and you will see the bank rate get faster.
To solve this I will not be sending aileron trim signals to flight simulator but relying on the yoke mechanism to apply the correct aileron deflection.
I will be using SIOC to control my motors. It will keep an internal value for the aileron trim and move the mechanism to that value when the autopilot is NOT in command. When the autopilot is in command it will move the centering mechanism to wherever the ailerons are deflected, so the autopilot will move the yoke ailerons. When the autopilot disconnects the centering mechanism will be moved to the internal trim value. This is true to the real aircraft because the autopilot doesnt trim the ailerons, it will just move them into position. In the real aircraft if you have the autopilot in command the aileron trim will not appear to do anything. If you trim to full left deflection, the autopilot will hold them wherever it requires them, BUT when you disconnect the yoke will swing the full left deflection as that is the trimmed position. Pilots have to watch out for that and with this setup I will too!
I will be using the same principles for my rudder pedals including the centering mechanism and trim.
The elevator is different as discussed in my first post. For that I will be sending the trim signals to FS so it can move the stabaliser. My elevator will be centred using the same prinicples as the aileron except that the centering neutral point will not move.
Additionaly I would idealy want to model the artificial feel applied to the 767 yoke. I am not sure if this applies to the 737 as it's yoke might be directly connected the control surfaces but in the 767 it is not, so artificial feel is applied. This will be a nice to have feature but not something that is really necessary so I will only do it if I have time and it isnt too complicated. But this is how I expect it could be done.
As the aircraft picks up speed the elevators will be harder to push/pull. To do this I will have the elevator centering mechanism connected to a lead screw which is connected to my yokes. By moving the centering mechanism up and down the lead screw I will be able to change the moment of the centering force, resulting in a heavier or lighter centering mechanism depending on the speed of the aircraft. I hope you get what I mean by this, its difficult without pictures! Imagine I have my yokes like yours except there is a smaller vertical rod in the centre. If I attach my centering mechanism at the top of this vertical rod I will have to push hard to move the gas struts, if it is attached near the bottom I will be able to use less force. By using a load screw I can move the attachment point up and down that vertical rod to change the amount of force I need.
This artificial feel could also be done on the ailerons and rudder.
Artificial feel is dependant on many factors and I dont have all the info about how it affects the yoke and rudder yet, but it is essentially speed based.
So for you, if you remove or disable the moving mechanism for the elevator centering it should be OK.
Feel free to ask any questions. :-)
Tom.
I'll let this one go. It turned out the trim did'nt act the way I thought. Bad research there ;) I'll work on other ideas later on.
Hi Nax,
Great setup,
I especially like the mirrored projection. Is there no obstruction in the lightpath when you move your head or arms? (especially during the cheering after a succesful landing, with confetti and trumpets, you know what i mean : ))
cheers,
dion
hehe... i see what you mean, but it's ok. The height is supposed to be just high enough to be able to mount a overhead underneath.
thanks for the CAD system ... very interesting for my projectQuote:
Originally Posted by nax228
Hope it serve you well. May the force be with you...
Not much to update lately, but there have been some progress. Firstly I have switched my cockpitsoftware. Just before christmas I tried the Prosim737 suite, and this is a much better choice for me. I belive this software is going to be the preferred one by most 737-800NG builders in the years to come. If you havent tried it, DO SO!
For the first test I didn't unplug or rearranged any hardware or computer setup. The software was installed in the matter of munutes and configuration to get it going was also done very quick.
Regarding the dual yokes I have encountered quite some problems, but it will be up and running within the next 3 weeks. My girlfriend is traveling to china and will return in 3 weeks. She did not want the assembly in the kitchen when she returns :D With her out of the house I can also dedicate more time to build, so it should be OK.
The gas struts that I thought was strong enough wasn't after all... by far. I haven't sorted out how to do this best, but will try another solution this week. The gas truts will remain cuz they made the movement soft. The aileron movement is done and worked out fine.
A few pics from the process:
The basemodule with yokes
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_6...22011347-1.jpg
Flywheels for aileron movement:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_6...8022011361.jpg
Flywheels in place:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_6...9022011366.jpg
Gas struts mounted:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_6...9022011363.jpg
overview:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_6...9022011367.jpg
On this last picture I hadn't cut the MDF that interfere with the wire. It's done now.
The wire runs two times around the flywheels and is secured wit epoxy on the inside. You also see the connetors from the buttons on the yokes. These are ready to be connected to the BU086x card. I will parallel couple the wires so that any action on eighter yoke will preform the tasks.
Soon to be updated!!
Good job, good solutions, I like the result ;)
PROSIM737!
hehe
What do you mean, NAX?:???:
JWS
I was really just trying to write with fontsize 77... didn't work
a few more days... a few weeks at tops ;)... then bact to flying
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_6...0032011422.jpg
You won't understand what i'm talking about on this video, but you'll get the basic idea behind it.
Could not find a good solution for the elevator springs/centerpoint, so i will just have to deal with that later on. The struts and the nylon gascets make the feel quite ok anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbhioy6gG4U
yupp... getting there
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_6...2032011425.jpg
Looking good Nax
You sure do Nax !!!
:)