PM Pricing "Gasp, cough, cough"

[jmig]

I have been looking at net-workable instruments software. No one makes a package that models the T-38C gauges so, I contacted Project Magenta. I read quite a bit about them and their products. PM seens to have a loyal base of users. When the pricing came back, I like to have had a heart attack.

Over a $1000 for the full line airliner configuration. Even the Regional Jet, which is what I would consider using is almost $400. To say the least, I was shocked. I have considered offering to pay someone to program T-38C style gauges for me. I expected to pay a few hundred for something like that. It would be a custom programming job. However, $1000 for off the shelf software for a $60 game?

Maybe I am full of it here but, this seems very excessive to me. Sorry!

[Tomlin]

Over a $1000 for the full line airliner configuration. Even the Regional Jet, which is what I would consider using is almost $400. To say the least, I was shocked.... However, $1000 for off the shelf software for a $60 game?

Maybe I am full of it here but, this seems very excessive to me. Sorry!

This is exactly why I went with buying the RJ software back in Feb. I knew it was going up in costs, and I waited till the last possible day-litterally! I got it at $200+/-. Now I still have to buy CDU software, but not too soon. Maybe someone else will come along and give PM a run for their money-someone with a dedicated forum.

Regarding a $60 game- Uh....maybe for you, but for me and countless others, I see it as a $60 bargain of software for a suspension of disbelief. If MSFS is considered a 'game', then so should X-Plane, ASA On-Top, CAE software, Flight Safety International, and so on...

MSFS replicates all the basic functions of all flight simulator software used for training (for the very most part anyhow)

BTW, no offense intended my friend, but just want to clarify that issue. MSFS is sold as a 'game' but everyone here is well aware of just how far one can exploit the capabilities of MSFS software. Cant tell you how fired up I got way back in the day when my aviation professor tried to knock MSFS as a 'toy' and compare it to ASA's 'On-Top' software, which had NO functionality over the then current version of MSFS with the exception that ASA had sought, and paid for, FAA certification for use in PC-based training aides. He wouldnt hear me out, and I still get ticked to think about how beligerent he was about that issue. Again, no offense intended!

Anyhow, yes, I agree- PM software is expensive, but until someone else comes along and creates a viable competing product, it's just the way it is. What you have to remember is that in the bigger picture, $1000 for software is not that big of a deal considering that when you buy panels, or interfacing, or ONE really good FS computer, they are all over $1000. One goal I have is that if I am ever able to start my own FS business, I will do my best to have someone develop a competing product available for sale to the public that will work just as well and become just as popular :-)

Oh....the dreaming....

[JBaymore]

Yup.... PM is VERY "pricey" at first glance. I certainly can't afford it in one "pop".

In their defense, niche market, special interest software always is expensive in any field. (OR... someone is doing a "labor of love".....which has driven the freeware flightsim situation for years) Development costs for the complex software result in a high "per unit" cost, due to the limited number of sales that are even possible.

I wonder how many units PM has actually sold? I am pretty sure it is not that many worldwide. While cockpit building is "taking off" (pun intended ;) ) .....there are not THAT many being built. And PM does not get the whole 100% market share.

For arguments sake let's say they sold 1000 units at $1000 each. That is a total gross revenue of $100,000. Sounds like a lot. But Gross is not NET. From a business investment standpoint... that is NOT a lot of money. Think about the expenses of maintaining the PM website alone each year. Then the costs to advertise. Anyone who runs a small business can go on and on with this list of "minor" expenses. And don't forget the pay for the actual programming time........ that eats up a HUGE pile of the cash.

Programmers make a lot per hour for their time. (Car mechanics around here get close to $100 per hour!) The amount of "bulletproof" code that you can write in a day is pretty small. Researching the systems functionality of a real aircraft takes a lot of time. The real issue on their pricing is the TIME factor.

Years ago I wrote code for a commercial piece of niche market ceramics field software ....... it is NOT a "get rich quick" scheme. :(

The possible problem with PM I see from reading the comments in forums is the apparently unfinished nature of the software that is being sold at such a price. And the apparent lack of support for that software. If every aspect of the software worked to a reasonable level (there will ALWAYS be bugs in ANY software)...... I don't think people would complain so much.

THIS is the real problem with PM, as I see it from afar (I don't own it). The product and support is apparently not backing up the slick, highly professional looking website. Style ahead of substance?

However, anyone who is demanding the level of realism that has them ALSO going out and spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on detailed commercial replica panels, look-alike switches, real aircraft parts, and so on likely should EXPECT to pay something like $1000 for a detailed replica of the aircraft's systems functionality that is the KEY to "driving" all those panels and equipment. Why should the software be "worth" less than a physical set of panels?

This is why with my level of affluence (or actually lack thereof ;) ), my pit is designed as a generic one, and the panels and such are all homemade. I simply cannot afford a detailed replica of a specific aircraft with all that implies. If a system is not exactly like the real aircraft .... well...... such is life. And while I am a craftsman, I don't have the amazing engineering skills of a Gwyn to do what he has done....which is a pretty darn CLOSE handbuilt exact replica. 99.99999 % of the time, when you go the "replica route", it gets expensive.


My current "tweeked" copy of MSFS2004 is not all that inexpensive either if you add it all up. Yes the base MS simulator only cost about $50 at the time. BUT..... adding in a full compliment of FSGenesis mesh for the whole world (including buffer mesh), American Roads, Rivers, and Streams, NURoad Repaver, FScene textures for Asia, Flight Environment, Ground Environment II Pro, a passel of FlyTampa airports, some Overland Japanese Airports, Emma Field, a Turbine Sound Studios sound pack for my 146-200, Aerosoft AES Services, Real ATIS, and SelectFX...... (and probably others I am forgetting) well....... it is probably more like a $350-400 simulator now. Not to mentionj all the TIME I have spent tweeking it...... and I'd sell it for maybe $6000-7000. ;)


Anyway...... I'm merrily flying along using my freeware copies of FreeFD.... and having high hopes for Ellie Systems upcoming payware offerings. And custom set up panels for FSXpand are working for my EICAS display form my main aircraft (BAe 146-200). And FS2Phidget. And some systems logic is built using the physical switch logic on the panel wiring.

So my $0.02 worth.

best,

.................john

[Bob Reed]

Your reply is dead on John. And add to that that most of us did not pay $1000.00+ for the software.. It has only been that hight the last couple of years. And we do get updates. How much of the software you use and paid good money for get you 10. ok 8, ok 5 real updates a year? ( not counting M$ here that has to update weekly because their software has security holes in it) Yes PM spoiled us with all they did and we do not like sitting waiting to see what is going on. The cost of the software is a small amount in regards to the overall cost of the project and for most of us it makes the entire sim possible. Not saying I agree with the price hikes or anything else here but we have to deal with what we have, what are you going to do stop using the software you paid all that money for? Yes it looks like they are going to be more like every other software company out there... That is too bad.. But life goes on.

[PaulEMB]

Well said John,

t might be worth remembering that the main reason for the price increases, discussed on the PM forum at the time, was the increasing number of "private" users, who turned out to be commercial users, circumventing the dual level licence fees.

I purchased at the old prices, but even at the new prices, I agree that it is still value for money - look at the prices for other sim suppliers of hardware.

It will be interesting to see pricing from new suppliers - the Airbus software from AST is not cheap.

Why don't I hear people complaining of the prices of FDS MIPs?

[jmig]

Eric, no offense taken. I may have used the term “game” in the wrong context? While I consider MSFS more than a “game”, I do not consider it flying. It is far better than the military simulators I flew, while in the service. At least in the visual, “this is cool” factor. Still, I would challenge anyone who thinks that because they can fly MSFS, Falcon 4.0, etc. that they could fly the real aircraft, if available.

On the subject of cockpit builders, yes we spend a lot of money on the hobby. I refuse to keep record of the receipts. LOL I don’t want any incriminating evidence around, in case the boss wants an audit. However, she knows it’s already a couple thousand and climbing.

As for PM software, I am not trying to say anything negative about the company or those of you who own the software. If you find it to be a good value, I am glad for you. It meets your needs.

I suffered from sticker shock and considering even the cost of panels, hardware, IO cards, etc. it seems high to me. Especially, when you consider I don’t want to fly a B-747. I had the opportunity to interview for one of the major airlines back in the late 70's and turned it down. I learned long ago that I am not cut out to be a “suiter.” That is why I am the senior partner in my own business.

I have played around with FSxpand (still trying to get the demo to work) and others. If Jean Luc ever upgrades his excellent RealityXP software and allows it to be run via WideFS he should have an excellent market. There are also a couple other people trying to develop similar products.

I guess it comes down to the value for the money. For me I can’t see the value worth the money.

[Bob Reed]

Eric, no offense taken. I may have used the term “game” in the wrong context? While I consider MSFS more than a “game”, I do not consider it flying. It is far better than the military simulators I flew, while in the service. At least in the visual, “this is cool” factor. Still, I would challenge anyone who thinks that because they can fly MSFS, Falcon 4.0, etc. that they could fly the real aircraft, if available.

On the subject of cockpit builders, yes we spend a lot of money on the hobby. I refuse to keep record of the receipts. LOL I don’t want any incriminating evidence around, in case the boss wants an audit. However, she knows it’s already a couple thousand and climbing.

As for PM software, I am not trying to say anything negative about the company or those of you who own the software. If you find it to be a good value, I am glad for you. It meets your needs.

I suffered from sticker shock and considering even the cost of panels, hardware, IO cards, etc. it seems high to me. Especially, when you consider I don’t want to fly a B-747. I had the opportunity to interview for one of the major airlines back in the late 70's and turned it down. I learned long ago that I am not cut out to be a “suiter.” That is why I am the senior partner in my own business.

I have played around with FSxpand (still trying to get the demo to work) and others. If Jean Luc ever upgrades his excellent RealityXP software and allows it to be run via WideFS he should have an excellent market. There are also a couple other people trying to develop similar products.

I guess it comes down to the value for the money. For me I can’t see the value worth the money.

And there is nothing wrong with that! That is the beauty of being a builder, you are supposed to do it the way "YOU" see it not the way others see it! I too get sticker shock when I start to look at panels.. I have not bought a pre made panel in a LONG time and most of the ones I have are old and no longer supported... But with a little time they look good enough for me and suit my purpose which is to have a flying cockpit and not spend the next 10 years wanting a cockpit as I save to buy little bits here and there.. Yes I build a lot of stuff myself as well.. But that is another thread!!:D

[3202b]

The software may have a few bugs here and there but it was worth the price IMO, I've enjoyed using it over the last few months. When the bugs are fixed it will be fantastic.

[mauriceb]

Still, I would challenge anyone who thinks that because they can fly MSFS, Falcon 4.0, etc. that they could fly the real aircraft, if available.


You've already lost the challenge I'm afraid :grin:. A couple of years ago, AVSIM got some people in Denver who had never flown a real aircraft and who were only flying MS flight simulator with some add-ons to try their hands at flying a Boeing 747 full motion simulator at the United Airlines training center in Denver, Colorado.

From what I read, all of them managed to land the Boeing 747 on their first try. Some even managed to land it without loss of life :) under less than ideal conditions.

I would say you've lost your challenge, wouldn't you ;)

Maurice

[JBaymore]

A couple of years ago, AVSIM got some people in Denver who had never flown a real aircraft and who were only flying MS flight simulator with some add-ons to try their hands at flying a Boeing 747 full motion simulator at the United Airlines training center in Denver, Colorado.

From what I read, all of them managed to land the Boeing 747 on their first try. Some even managed to land it without loss of life :) under less than ideal conditions.

I remember seeing that. I think that "test" also made an issue of COmputer Pilot or PC Pilot magazines.

I'll tell you however........ my guess is if it had been done up in the REAL plane in the air..... that the "pucker factor" would have changed the results quite a bit ;).

Even in my sim... I've been known to react with "sweaty palms" and a knot in my stomach on really nasty approches...... and I (supposedly) KNOW it 's "only a movie".

best,

.................john

[whoispankaj]

I am not sure as to how many people are developing PM..Reading the forum it looks only Enrico is working on it...Reading the forums I find many people complaining about things not working..I think Enrico should concentrate on building the software for one aircraft and not build for a multitude of aircraft...
This will help him channelize his efforts on one and get it bug free as much as possible than to write code for tens of aircraft models...This is one place where i think PM is going wrong....and hence these issues...I might be wrong..Just expressed what i think as a software developer...

[jmig]

You've already lost the challenge I'm afraid :grin:. A couple of years ago, AVSIM got some people in Denver who had never flown a real aircraft and who were only flying MS flight simulator with some add-ons to try their hands at flying a Boeing 747 full motion simulator at the United Airlines training center in Denver, Colorado.

From what I read, all of them managed to land the Boeing 747 on their first try. Some even managed to land it without loss of life :) under less than ideal conditions.

I would say you've lost your challenge, wouldn't you ;)

Maurice

Nope! Sorry Maurice, I disagree. A sim is a sim, is a sim. As they say. John Baymore is correct. Throw in the pucker factor. Take out the IP to save you butt and see what happens.

Unless you have flow a high performance complex plane, you have no idea how fast things happen. That is not a slight on anyone, it is a statement of fact. I have never forgotten my first student ride in the T-38.

We lined up on the run way. The IP asked me if I was ready. I saw the RPM gauges go to 100% then the nozzles close. He released brakes. The next thing I remember was us climbing through 1500 feet and him contacting departure control. 10-15 seconds had passed. I don’t remember any of it.

There is an expression used by pilots, “He got behind the power curve.” That is usually said about some one who recently bought the farm. He was behind the airplane and it flew him, rather than the pilot flying the airplane.

I really believe a sim only pilot will fair no better.

[Michael Carter]

I agree with John about the sim vs real flying, especially a high performance or heavy aircraft. It is not the same. And if you don't have the experience you will never know what that feels like.

There is another old saying about flying that goes; never let the aircraft take you anywhere your brain didn't get to ten minutes before.

If this happens you've lost your SA and you may well buy the farm if things go south.

You're not going to get much vertigo or spacial disorientation in a sim. Try a no/low visibility approach while being bumped around so bad your brain is telling you you're turning or climbing or descending and your instruments say different. You have to fight that urge to obey your brain. And you still have to talk, turn, time, and tune all the while you are still flying the aircraft.

Flying a simulator is nothing like flying a real aircraft.

[NicD]

Flying a simulator is nothing like flying a real aircraft.

Too black and white there. Flying a PC-based sim or home-cockpit is 'something' like flying a real aircraft .. otherwise we're all wasting our time.

And if jet-jockeys can get fully type rated in a level-D sim then it MUST be like flying the real aircraft... otherwise ...

And having flown real aircraft (up to light twins) and 747 and 767 full-motion sims, I'm not just talking hot air.

[sas550]

Too black and white there. Flying a PC-based sim or home-cockpit is 'something' like flying a real aircraft .. otherwise we're all wasting our time.

And if jet-jockeys can get fully type rated in a level-D sim then it MUST be like flying the real aircraft... otherwise ...

And having flown real aircraft (up to light twins) and 747 and 767 full-motion sims, I'm not just talking hot air.


Agree about too black and white, but on the other hand you won't be type rated in a level d without some 50/100 hours of logged twin engine time.

[Bob Reed]

Ok guys... If you want to continue this real vs sim.. Please start another thread in the right forum? And we thank you for your support!! :)

[B738]

PM has cost me approximately $1800 Australian Dollars and you guys are complaing about $1000 US ?

As far as I'm concerned its the best investment I've made for my sim and is the only choice if your seriously considering a full professional flightdeck.

[michelmvd]

Hi Brad,
For me isn't a matter of money. If the software is working as it should do then there is no problem. A good product must have a good price and normally it's then also a warranty for a good service.
The fact is that there are now already for more than ten month's errors in the basic functions of the CDU, when it's used as it should be, which are of course very frustrating for a lot of customers.
B. Rgds
Michel

[pylet]

For arguments sake let's say they sold 1000 units at $1000 each. That is a total gross revenue of $100,000. Sounds like a lot. But Gross is not NET. From a business investment standpoint... that is NOT a lot of money. Think about the expenses of maintaining the PM website alone each year. Then the costs to advertise. Anyone who runs a small business can go on and on with this list of "minor" expenses. And don't forget the pay for the actual programming time........ that eats up a HUGE pile of the cash.
.................john

Actually, 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000. Looks like you missed an important zero.;)

[brissydave]

to build a proper boeing sim at this present time...ya need pm....thats it, clear cut...give me a goddam break. if ya not serious pack up and fugg off.
it opens up so many new doors in the construction of your home sim.
if ya dont want it..or need it...then dont freakin buy it.

the same day i decided to build a 737 sim was the same day i ACCEPTED that i would be forking out big cash for pm (and lots of other things that seem to be massively expensive for what they are)....too easy. i was personally very excited to finally get my pm codes...very happy. my sim finally had a nerve centre.

i stopped upgrading pm when i got to updates that worked fine....too scared to go further right now cause of all the talk. but im happy.

as far as flying a real airliner goes versus a sim....two differant kettles of fish.
no need to even go there.

some of us a catching marlin...and some of us are fishing in their backyard ponds for goldfish....big expensive goldfish made from mdf.

[jmig]

to build a proper boeing sim at this present time...ya need pm....thats it, clear cut...give me a goddam break. if ya not serious pack up and fugg off.
it opens up so many new doors in the construction of your home sim.
if ya dont want it..or need it...then dont freakin buy it.

the same day i decided to build a 737 sim was the same day i ACCEPTED that i would be forking out big cash for pm (and lots of other things that seem to be massively expensive for what they are)....too easy. i was personally very excited to finally get my pm codes...very happy. my sim finally had a nerve centre.

i stopped upgrading pm when i got to updates that worked fine....too scared to go further right now cause of all the talk. but im happy.

as far as flying a real airliner goes versus a sim....two differant kettles of fish.
no need to even go there.

some of us a catching marlin...and some of us are fishing in their backyard ponds for goldfish....big expensive goldfish made from mdf.

OK, I won't freakin buy it!!! Go back and read my opening post, I am building a T-38C cockpit. Most of the stuff in PM won't even apply.

Besides, I am from the bayou country of Louisiana. I can take a mess of mullets and make them into something that tastes like it came from one of the finest restaurants in the world. What can you do with your marlin except hang it on the wall?

;)

[Matt Olieman]

Ok, Now I'm getting hungry John and Dave..... Time for a fish fry :)

[Michael Carter]

I'll bring the Hofbrauhaus!

I have no interest in PM either as they do not support what I'm building and never will. That's fine by me, there are always alternatives.

I can't complain about the price since I won't be buying it.

[brissydave]

my comments weren't actually directed at anyone in particular at all. i was just talking for the sake....off on my own crazy tangent again.

but...yeah....you guys that are building generic stuff or ga stuff....it really sucks that theres no software. i wanted a king air sim so very badly, but i have to put up with this crappy 737 bullshit.

wish i lived in Louisiana....ill bring the jack daniels and the crayfish and mosquito spray.

"the real pilots are catching marlin and we are all fiddlin' with the goldfish".....

ahh forget it....you had to be there.

[Matt Olieman]

I want to see the pics and see what I missed :)

[Westozy]

My two cents...

I reckon 90% of the fun in this hobby is the building itself, 5% sharing it here and 5% flying it!

PMDG737 totally rocks, it's boot up to throttle up in less than 3 minutes, it cost a hundred bucks so I'll be leaving the PM problems under this roof to the missus!

Real v Sim - I have my Cessna licence with a low number of hours but I'd gladly jump in for a blast in an NG, My Virgin Blue captain/instructor said I would probably live. I think any sim pilot who takes FS seriously enough to build a home cockpit would probably have the skills to be able to give it a good crack. BSW, spot on about the G and disorientation, something sims can't replicate. Idea! cockpit inside a spherical frame lol! Having to keep the chin up in the terror zone doesn't happen alot home so it all depends on the individual who can or can't cope with it at the time. I still remember my first take off crushing the yoke grips on a C150 Aerobat and getting thrown around in a clear blue sky. I was glad to have an expert next to me and that was after 5 years of simming. It was such a big adrenalin charge to be doing it for real and a real wake up. I did manage to do my first solo circuit at 8.2 hours which says a lot for sim experience, it does help for sure.

Gwyn

[michelmvd]

Hi Gwyn,


My two cents...

I reckon 90% of the fun in this hobby is the building itself, 5% sharing it here and 5% flying it!



I don't agree with you. I think there are different catogories of hobbiests building a cockpit. Indeed as you said, there is a group, who are building a cockpit for the fun of building it. Flying the thing is less important for them. There is certainly another catogory of people, as meself, who are building the cockpit as an necessary tool, to be able to fly as real as possible. Finally there is a group in between who are building for the fun and have afterwards the fun of flying it.

Honestly I'm hating that I must do all the building, but I know it is necassery when I like to do my hobby - simulating real commercial flights as real as it get. I never was able to do it in real life, but it always has been a youthdream, which I'm now able to do in the sim. If I would be an oil -sjeik, then I would prefer to buy a fully build cockpit of my B744 and concentrating on the flying.

It's good I think there are many groups of builders, as we all can learn from eachother.

B. RGds
Michel

[Tomlin]

Ive often thought to myself, what would I do (or buy) if I could actually afford a Level D sim at home or at my own business. The post made by *michelmvd* about how he would rather buy and fly than to build and then fly is what triggered my post here.

I have often dreamed over the past 3 years or so about starting a sim business that catered to the enthusiast as well as offering time in some sims to those that want to learn CRM and Systems Management (no logged flight time). However, I have often wondered if I would rather build my own brand of sims, or just pay for a professionally built sim and just fly the thing. I have to think that building is a great part of it, but I would most rather do it with professionally built parts from either my own company, or someone like FDS/InnovativeFSP/Engravity/etc. so that Im not using homemade parts for so much of the build. Then again, that's fun too-seeing what can be done DIY style.

Cant say how cool it was when I connected the first LEDs this weekend and they worked just like the landing gear lights do! Building is fun...flying is fun. Guess it depends on what mood your in that day!

Have Fun All...

[mauriceb]

If I would be an oil -sjeik, then I would prefer to buy a fully build cockpit of my B744 and concentrating on the flying.
B. RGds
Michel

I concur wholeheartedly. I was meant to be born rich and to leave the building to others. :D Give me a fully built CAE simulator and maintenance crew any day over inhaling MDS dust, shopping for nuts & bolts and whatever paraphernalia you also need and let me sink in a plush captain seat, turn on a few switches and have the sim come to life. Oh yeah, that is what was meant for me. :cry::cry:

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

Well I will chime in here. I LOVE to build. Plain and simple. The building is almost as fun as the flying, to me,.....Most of the time.... But since I have taken my sim to the place where it now is, other then some forced maintenance I have done nothing but fly it! But the building is important to me as well. I am sure as winter approaches and I get a few more $$ to spend things will start to happen to get me back into a building mode. Lets see. Oh yes my over head!!!! That will start soon! Any way it is a personal thing and we know that we are not all the same. So for me, building 45% flying 55% at least for now.......

[JBaymore]

Building 50 / Flying 50

Going into overtime! ;)

best,

...................john

[James Twomey]

Well, with my two cents worth here I think that I can't stop tinkering, building and adjusting something on my flight deck. I'm always trying to make my next flight more realistic. For me, my skills at building are rudimentary at best, and so when I complete something and fly with it working like it should, there is no greater feeling.

So I guess for me it breaks down to 45 percent building and 55 flying for me.

James

[mauriceb]

OK, what we appear to have here is a bunch of liars :p who would turn down a free Level 5 CAE simulator & maintenance crew just for the joy of building :roll:. I think not. :p

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

OK, what we appear to have here is a bunch of liars :p who would turn down a free Level 5 CAE simulator & maintenance crew just for the joy of building :roll:. I think not. :p

Maurice

You are right I would not turn it down but guess what... It would need tinkering and repair and I would be willing to bet I could find things that could use to be added and or upgraded but it is a mute point as no one is ever going to give any of us a sim like that. And there are other things to consider. There was a airline that was giving away a complete DC10 level D sim.. Catch was you had to take it all and there was a time limit on removal.. Then how do you move it, where do you put it, how could you afford to run it... See...

[Matt Olieman]

I've seen that DC10..... you had to take it all.... and I thought about it..... It didn't take long to figure out it would cost more to move it and clean up then buy a new Level D sim. Neither one I could afford :(

It's been a few years.... what's the height sim structure, about 10 stories high?

[magicaldr]

Well to slip in my 2 pennies worth, I could not afford £500 on a single piece of software, but I have spent more than that over time on various add ins so I could live with it if I were building something that would benefit. So with my response on that side of the thread, about building V flying I am finding I spend more time in here and doodling in paper with my ideas than flying recently. So I think i am falling into the realms of:

30% Daydreaming about it
50% Buying, building, modding stuff or doing something towards it
20% in FSX actually flying it :)

My home cockpit is a long way off some of the amazing ones on here. I have no space so a dedicated room is just a dream. Would I buy an off the shelf sim, well I have brought various bits so I expect I would seriously consider it. Then again, I got the desktop aviator, and within 10 minutes had the case off. Within 1 day it was custom fitted in a different panel. So like so many here I would not turn down so pro made stuff, but I would be in there tinkering in no time...

[mauriceb]

[QUOTE=Bob Reed;39324] but it is a mute point as no one is ever going to give any of us a sim like that. QUOTE]

I was obviously exaggerating for the effect ;). The point I was trying to make is that there are builders who like flying & there are flyers who like building and countless combinations in between. I too like building things and I do recognize the fact that you can get a lot of satisfaction designing & building something, but I still like the flying part better & given the choice of struggling to build something or using ready made parts, I'd choose the ready made parts any day if I can afford them since that would get me flying faster.

Kudos to those who choose the hard way for whatever reason, but I'd rather be cruising at FL300 than inhaling dust at FL0 :D

Maurice

[jmig]

my comments weren't actually directed at anyone in particular at all. i was just talking for the sake....off on my own crazy tangent again.

but...yeah....you guys that are building generic stuff or ga stuff....it really sucks that theres no software. i wanted a king air sim so very badly, but i have to put up with this crappy 737 bullshit.

wish i lived in Louisiana....ill bring the jack daniels and the crayfish and mosquito spray.

"the real pilots are catching marlin and we are all fiddlin' with the goldfish".....

ahh forget it....you had to be there.

Ouuuu Jack Danials??? Hey buddy o pal of mine...:D come on down guys, one thing we Cajuns are known for is feeding people good.

I think that everyone should fly their sim as much as possible. The T-38 is my third sim. I still have the second with the CH controls and go-flight modules. I use it to test software and just fly.

I spent a year or better researching my T-38 sim. I worked on it for a year then took off a year to remodel two bathrooms. Now I have been back working on it for about six months. My goal is to have it flying by the end of the year. I fly as much as possible.

[Kennair]

For me the thrill of the build is almost as much fun as the thrill of flying it. Interesting to see the likes of New Zealand company Flight Experience hopping into the market to provide a 737 simulator experience to the general public. Obviously their market research sees it viable even in the small market of NZ and recently Sydney. You can buy the full kit from them and set it up as a business via their franchise or just for personal use. Not sure of the cost but I beleive the full franchise was in the order of $500,000 USD! (Of course this includes lots more than the hardware setup). Perhaps someone could chime in here and correct my figures?

I don't know if anyone here has added the cost of a full 737 install using custom panels from the likes of FDS and PM systems, but I would guess you could do it for much less than 1/2 a million. Lets be conservative and say $50,000. I'm sure there are many car enthusiasts that have spent more than that on their MG or Merc restoration project. Is our beloved simulator project really that different? I am of the "spend as little as possible and build by hand" brigade, but if I really bit the bullet and committed myself, maybe it would be a worthwhile investment in a hobby just like fishing for Marlin (or catfish)?? Part of my problem is no-one makes custom panels for a PC12!

Ken.

[jmig]

I think it depends on what you are looking for in your cockpit. Realism or emersion? I belong to the emersion crowd. I want to get as close to real flying as possible. I don’t care if the knob I turn looks like the real knob. I want to feel like I am in an airplane flying.

Then there are the realism folks. These guys, from what I infer from reading forums, want to duplicate the actual cockpit. I have seen posts asking for the actual Boeing paint spec and RBG values of the colors.

I would think that these people tend to be perfectionists. They focus on the details. They get joy in having every detail perfect, i.e., paint spec.

The generalists like myself, aren’t so focused on the details as the emersion factor. For me, a basic cockpit with knobs and switches in the right places to do the normal functions are all that is needed, by way of cockpit details. My willingness to consider the PM software shows this. It really isn’t made for what I want but, it is the closest thing around.

My money goes into visual, sound and tactile systems. This adds to the emersion factor. I currently have three 19" screens running through Triplehead2Go and IR Tracker. I fully plan on eventually moving to three projectors.

Phase two of my cockpit will include small transducers and speakers to provide tactile stimulation. When I designed my control stick, I built in a small 12v motor with an offset weight. Eventually it will become my stall warning and speeedbrake notification.

I also think that the choice of airplanes is, to an extend, related to the realism/emersion factors. Most of the Boeing/Airbus group will, I bet, be happy to go through 15 mins. of checklists and FMC programing before flying. This is the perfectionist coming out in them. They build a cockpit to fit a single model airplane. They then fly it by the book.

As a generalist, I am not interested in flying only one airplane. Although, I have chosen a single model to build and, provided someone makes a T-38C to fly in FSX, I will fly it most often. However, it is designed to easily convert to different airplanes. The aluminum instrument panels can easily be taken off and replaced with a different set of panels, reflecting a different airplane.

All in all, there is no one perfect way in this hobby. That is the beauty of it. We each get to design and build, within our financial and building skills resources, our own little world. That to me, is what makes it so wonderful.

[Tomlin]

Yes, (boy has this thread taken a turn!) I agree, that is what makes this hobby so wonderful-the flexibility that we all have. Speaking of having 1 aircraft simulated to the 'T' versus having something a bit more generic for flexibility, that's one of the biggest reasons I switched from the B737NG to the Learjet 45. I love all kinds of airplanes, and the 737NG to me is one of the most perfect airliners to simulate simply because of all the real parts available (which have in turn lead to the development of replica parts). However, with that project, I had become obsessed with building the airplane to the 'T' and therefore I knew that I would never be happy with a home built panel, or yokes, or seats and since I just happend to be acquaintances with a guy down the road a ways with a real 737 nose/yokes/seats/liner parts, I just HAD to buy that for myself one day. Then, thankfully, I spent a week in Tallahassee, FL on a business trip and 3 out of the 5 nights I was there, I was able to sit out on the bench at a very busy FBO that catered to PC-12s, L45's, Citation jets, Embraers, and the like. The next day after the first night out at the FBO, while sitting in my training class, my mind kept going back to the flight line and it dawned on me- Build a bussiness jet and dont get so attached to the aircraft type that you go mad by trying to replicate every nut and bolt.

And here I am now, 9 months later, and very happy to be building the L45, but not allowing my self to get too wrapped up in the smallest details like the exact color, real seats, or even all the systems. I can say with assurance that if I were still planning for a 737NG, I would have nothing more than the PMDG737NG and my computer, simply because I could never grasp the concept of buy a little at a time and build slowly as you can afford. Because I forced myself to lighten up a bit, I have went from 1 pc running FS9 to 3 pcs running FS9, PMRJ, a SYS3 interface board, switches that are functional, and soon the throttle quad will be finished and the interconnected yokes will begin construction.

Im not advocating not building the ultimate aircraft of your dreams, because if I had the money to do it as I demand for the 737NG or the 777, I would build one in a heartbeat. But, I know that it's beyond my means right now and Im satisfied taking the path I have chosen.

And, to full fill the urge to fly the 737, 777, Baron 58, or the PC12, I will just fly them using the joystick from the instructor's station!

[brissydave]

do i love building or flying or both....my two cents worth.

1 wake up...grab missus on boobs.
2 open shed
3 get tools out
4 work like a crazy maniac covered in sweat and mdf all day...also pushing wife off pc to scan pictures over and over and over.
5 is it right?....is it perfect?....hmmmm
6 yes!...it is...yipee!!
7 get beer....drink beer in captains seat.
8 admire new part....and giggle like a girl.
9 go inside house to finish rest of beer carton and dream of the next wonderful part to make.
10 grab missus on boobs.
11 go to bed.

[mauriceb]

Hey Brissy,

Do you ever get to fly as well? Your detailed 'list' failed to mention that so I think the MDF dust is seriously impacting your better judgement :D

Maurice

[brissydave]

hey morry...hope you are well big buddy.

i do love the flying part...but it is something that i am looking forward to...ive put it up on a pedestal.

when building the sim i generally have to have it running at altitude so i can test stuff and hook things up with io cards. and it just looks/feels nice.

finished renovating yet mate?....those pics of you sim look fantastic.

[jmig]

hey morry...hope you are well big buddy.

i do love the flying part...but it is something that i am looking forward to...ive put it up on a pedestal.

when building the sim i generally have to have it running at altitude so i can test stuff and hook things up with io cards. and it just looks/feels nice.

finished renovating yet mate?....those pics of you sim look fantastic.

I like to killed my self from heat stroke yesterday in the workshop. I should buy a couple of AC units for the place.

[Michael Carter]

Man, my basement is AC'ed. I don't think I'd be doing much building if it wasn't. I hate the summer heat.

I swore after I left the military I'd never have another outside job.

Spring, autumn, and winter I can handle, even sub-zero temps for extended periods, but have the medics standing by for me in the summer if I have to do anything outside and it's above 90 with a dew point hovering around the 65-70 degree mark.

Like right now here in Southern Illinois.

ANYWAY...I like building as much as I like flying, real or simulated. To be able to reproduce an unaffordable or unobtainable part in exact, or near exact detail is a real thrill for me and just drives me harder for more of the same. If I can reproduce a Boeing 727 throttle quadrant, I can surely build a chair to fly the thing.

Since I started this thing almost four years ago, I've built stuff I've only dreamed of owning but couldn't because of availability or cost. Usually the latter.

[jmig]

Man, my basement is AC'ed. I don't think I'd be doing much building if it wasn't. I hate the summer heat......
Since I started this thing almost four years ago, I've built stuff I've only dreamed of owning but couldn't because of availability or cost. Usually the latter.

Mine is a separate 20' X 24' building. When I built it 15 years ago, I was young and tough. Didn't need AC. Now...

I too get a kick from duplicating something. However, I learned long ago that even though I may be an engineer, I am not a craftsman. I cannot build something with the fine detail and excellence a craftsman does. So, I will buy when I think the time, effort and results will be better served by purchasing.

Then you have to add in the wife factor. somehow a $2000 sofa that I won't sit on is OURS but, anything I buy for the shop is MINE. :lol:

Women...after 40 years, still don't understand em.

[Tomlin]

Yes, somehow if it's somthing THEY will never use, it's not thiers, but like ya said, if it's somthing WE will never use, it's still ours! :-)

Oh, I love my wife. Actually I couldnt make it without her.

Re what Michael (BSW) said, building somthing that really looks the part but yet costs so much less is a real thrill. The only problem is that like what JMIG said, sometimes you have the skills, but not the tools and other days you have the tools, but not the skills. In the end, it's nice to have someone with both that can build it for you because you dont get so caught up on the imperfections of it. Going back to PM software (the original topic of this post), those guys obviously have the skills and the tools. I just wished that whatever was causing such delays in their bug-smashing and the promised feature-updating would be dealt with. In all fairness though, I dont know what they are dealing with right now that could be slowing that process down, but I hope it gets better soon. Thanks to JR for popping in and at least letting us know he reads the forum from time to time.

[NicD]

oh no, not the wife thing again... :roll:

[JBaymore]

I just wished that whatever was causing such delays in their bug-smashing and the promised feature-updating would be dealt with. In all fairness though, I dont know what they are dealing with right now that could be slowing that process down, but I hope it gets better soon.

Eric,

If you really take the time to parse what was written and think about exactly what was written there, the answer to that question is in there.

best,

................john

[Tim]

For the money we have spent on this software we should be getting better service than we are right now.

[Michael Carter]

I'm very happy not to have to deal with third party suppliers except for e-Bay and Nick at APHS.

That is one definate advantage of an unsupported build. Not having to rely on others.