New Navdata

[Tim]

Not sure what happened to the original post so here it is again.

I just noticed a new update for navdata on the pm updates page. I thought navdata was now supplied by Navigraph?

There is no mention of the new navdata build on the pm Notam page. Anyone know what the update is about?

Tim

[Bob Reed]

The new update is to test the Navdata for integrity. Seems the Navdata has been causing a lot of the trouble in the CDU.

[michelmvd]

It was so that with the use of previous beta navdata instead of the Navigraph airac cycles, problems as route going crazy when selecting a direct go to a waypoint later in the route and so, were finished.
Enrico contacted Navigraph about it, and I suppose this is now a "corrected" beta version to test with.
As soon I have the possibility to do so, I will report here (and to Enrico of course).
B. Rgds
Michel

[Tim]

Thanks for the clarification.

Tim

[NicD]

This makes me wonder why PM does not inform ALL users of these issues. We ALL need to know about bugs, fixes etc - don't we? There is scant information about issues and updates on the PM site ... nothing on NOTAMS, very little info on Navdata and Latest pages. They are fixing bugs .. great .. lets hear about it!

And yes I have asked this question to PM directly ... twice ... with no reply. I have sent a list of CDU bugs/issues also - no reply.

I appreciate the tid-bits of info we get here from other users but that should not be the primary and only source of information. PM should be doing that for the whole user group ... not selectively by email. It can't be that hard to update a web page or send a bulk email.

[mauriceb]

This makes me wonder why PM does not inform ALL users of these issues. We ALL need to know about bugs, fixes etc - don't we? There is scant information about issues and updates on the PM site ... nothing on NOTAMS, very little info on Navdata and Latest pages. They are fixing bugs .. great .. lets hear about it!



You are absolutely right here. Not that long ago, you could find many posts on forums singing praises about PM & Enrico, even after he announced the price increases. It's very sad that all I have read lately is criticism & complaints about PM. :(

It would take very little communication from Enrico to restore all the good vibes that most of us had at some time or another towards PM. But lately, this communication has totally dried out. Let's hope this is just a temporary state of affairs and not what we can expect in the future.

Maurice

[oal331]

Hello,

From my point of view the problem is that PM moved the old forum here as another user to user support and public discussion forum about FS, PM products, etc etc.
Enrico said this is not the official support place, so the support team does not participate here to help or solve issues, but only via private emails.

Via private emails ONE asks but also ONE learns :(

We lost the contact with PM team ......., we lost many friends from old forums :-(

Eddie

[NicD]

Yes, good points there.

When PM moved the forum here and we lost that contact it was the same time that prices rose, and the same time there was talk around about PM not supporting amateur builders anymore. PM said that was just gossip, but the coincidences makes you wonder a bit.

Maybe they don't want a public paper-trail of support problems and bugs on their site (i.e. an active user forum), and they'd rather keep it in the amateur corner over here where their big customers don't look? Maybe it's easier for them to handle us one-by-one.

I said it then and I'll say it now - ditching the support forum and going to individual email support only is just plain dumb.

I think it's time someone from PM came on here and discussed this with us.

[mauriceb]

Hello,

Enrico said this is not the official support place, so the support team does not participate here to help or solve issues, but only via private emails.

Eddie

And this is where the problem lies. Unless everyone shares what they found from a private e-mail with everyone in a public forum, then PM support will keep getting the same questions asked over & over and that impedes their ability to work on the truly important issues.

This forum does help a lot because many of us share our findings, but I'm 100% sure that many questions have been answered by PM support that did not get published anywhere.

I still think that a forum moderated or at least visited by PM support people was the best approach. Too bad we lost that.

Maurice

[whoispankaj]

Looks like going the Microsoft way..

[Bob Reed]

Ok guys..here it goes and I do not say this to insult anyone! The big companies do not have the problems because they do not update. They are not concerned with flying with the most recent navdata, they are not any where near as demanding as we (the hobbiest) are. They want the software to work so they can teach someone how to use it nothing more. So when new features come out, they do not update until they are told it is safe to. Like now I am having non of the problems you guys are but I am running old software and the original navdata beta. Today I will backup my CDU and try the new navdata if it does not work I will delete the dir and put the old one back. We have this problem with PM because we have become spoiled by the way Enrico used to update it. No other software in the world is done that way. I find I have a lot less head aches if I just wait until I hear that the build is stable before I install it.

[mauriceb]

We have this problem with PM because we have become spoiled by the way Enrico used to update it. No other software in the world is done that way. I find I have a lot less head aches if I just wait until I hear that the build is stable before I install it.

Bob,
That maybe so, but keep in mind that the reason some of us do early updates is because we are having problems with the released version, and in many cases, PM support themselves is asking us to use the beta versions. Perhaps that is their fault for pushing us to be guinea pigs.

Here is a direct quote from their NOTAM "As previously announced, our Navdata updates from January 18th on will be available via Navigraph Navdata Service". Do you see any mention that we should not be using that until it is proven stable? :). I would gladly pay PM instead of Navigraph for stable updates if I could do that.

I for one would never have any inclination to update anything if everything worked as it should (or as I think it should). You are indeed very fortunate if you are not having any of the problems others seem to be having, but that is really not the main issue here. What's wrong with PM keeping us informed from time to time about the things that they are fixing, or the known problems which they will address at a later time?

That is simply good customer service, nothing else, nothing more. I don't think that is asking too much after paying more than a thousand dollars for their software. Many software companies that sell expensive software packages publish a list of known issues simply to keep their customers informed and so as not to get countless queries about known issues. Don't you think that would also make sense for PM to do the same?

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

Yes I think a list of known issues would be good. We got spoiled and there is nothing else that can be said about that. It is too bad that things have gone this way but it is what it is. The problem is the navdata. I am not using the most up to date version.. So I am not having the problems I am running older versions of the software and I will not update until I am sure all is stable. The other night (a few weeks ago same software and navdata) I had to change my rout 3 times on Vatsim. No problems . If a sid or star is not there I type it in. Is that not part of the pilots job? This point can be argued until we are all blue but it will change nothing. We have to deal with what we have.

[mauriceb]

This point can be argued until we are all blue but it will change nothing. We have to deal with what we have.

I guess there is no point talking about anything in this forum then since nothing will ever get changed according to you. I find that very sad indeed. And 'dealing with what we have' is exactly what we are doing by calmly talking about it.

I'm not sure why you seem to be getting offended by constructive suggestions. Perhaps the folks at PM don't care about our opinions. But I think they do, especially if they hear the same concerns from many people.

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

Hello mauriceb. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not offended in the least! I like reading different ideas. I am saying there is a way around a problem when things don't go as we plan or they should! We need to complain and make sure PM knows how we feel about it. But until things change, which is always a possibility, we need to find a way to go on with our projects. If I was having the trouble you folks are I would be very upset that I could not fly as I want to!!! So I am not offended and I encourage you to continue to let PM know how you feel. :D

[mauriceb]

So I am not offended and I encourage you to continue to let PM know how you feel. :D

I guess we are on the same page then :) . I'm not a PM 'basher' by any means, 'au contraire' in fact. I met Enrico when he came to FDS in Toronto a couple of summers ago, and I was quite impressed by him and by his views on where things were going.
I just think that the direction they seem to be taking now is somehow unnecessarily upsetting many people, and that is very sad when the solution is really quite simple... just keep us informed so that we don't feel (rightly or wrongly) 'abandoned' :)

Maurice

[oal331]

Both of you have right.
Yes Bob many of us remain in old builds and quite often updates, beacause of the fear for new bugs and problems. All we have somewhere stored a directory "Last stable builds" just in case we will need it in the future after an update. About navdata i also have the old ones, but someday i have to update them because i'm flying online :cool:

Maurice,
you also have right. I year before Enrico decided to stop the old forum, we also offered support each other, because Enrico was absent from the forum for many months due to his business trips. We also had many issues to solve, some of them they are ficed, others we have forget them.
Let's see the PmSystmes example. I don't know in which logic to invest my overhead, as the deafault one does not have all the features and has a slow update progress. It is "a heavy" software which needs a separate PC to handle it and i have it somewhere install it waiting for some green light ;)

Anyway, i don't know what PM staff plan to do with all the issues we wrote in the above posts, we need their opinion from their point of view.

If i can make a prosposal, maybe a survey will be a good approach to collect information what PM users want/need. What are you say about it?


Eddie

[whoispankaj]

Yes you are right.There is no point in arguing in this forum about the PM support.We would need to quantify our problem by having a survey or something and putting this across to Enrico saying "This is what your customers feel about the thing that is going on with the support".Its for you to decide.After all we are not paying just 50$ for the software but it is thousands of pounds paid for the software and hence the expectations are high and you need the value of what you pay for...If things still remain the same then i am foreseeing problems with PM similar to the war of Microsoft and Linus.Someone (may be myself :D) will start writing free (with some fee offcourse;))software for these systems.Unless competition increases the service won't get any better...Seen this concept working in real life...Looks like I have spoken too much...Need to get some sleep...

[oal331]

After all we are not paying just 50$ for the software but it is thousands of pounds paid for the software and hence the expectations are high and you need the value of what you pay for...If things still remain the same then i am foreseeing problems with PM ...........

As i'm working in Software business many years, i have to say that other thing is the money we pay to buy a software "as is" and other thing is the support. With the money we paid before many months to Enrico, we can not have claims for unlimited free of charge support until 2070:p
.
But.... , before some time ago, in the old forum i made a proposal to have all the "home-customers" an annual fee for support, new builds and navdata. Enrico replied by saying that he doesn't want to take money from us and as he can manage it, he will offer free of charge the support and new builds.
So, until today the things are as he said. We still have free new builds and support via private emails, right?

Maybe time after time things are changing and it will be nice to listen both sides what they want/need

Eddie

[mauriceb]

before some time ago, in the old forum i made a proposal to have all the "home-customers" an annual fee for support, new builds and navdata. Enrico replied by saying that he doesn't want to take money from us and as he can manage it, he will offer free of charge the support and new builds.



Funny you say that because I e-mailed exactly the same suggestion to Enrico last year...to charge a reasonable fee for updates in the future. Enrico was adamant that this wasn't what he would like to do. His heart is definitely in the right place and maybe a survey might help in this case.

But it may just be a case that Enrico simply has too many irons in the fire & unless he finds a way to clone himself, we are just going to have to wait for the 'goodies' . :D .

In the meantime, I still think more communications from PM would go a long way in restoring our somewhat strained confidence & dampening our often impatient expectations. :)

Maurice

[NicD]

I agree - this is not really about the Navadata, although I acknowledge that seems to be the root of recent CDU troubles. I'm also not keen to try new builds and not desparate for new navdata, but like Maurice, I had to go with the new builds and data because of the problems I was having. So it's not about being up-to-date with the latest, its just about having a CDU that works reasonably well (which it does not at the moment).

I've spent many years in the IT game and have run support and help-desks for large organisations - so I say these things both as a paying customer and someone who's been in PMs type of position. The key here is COMMUNICATION. Bugs, builds, fixes etc. are a fact of life that we need to accept and work with, however the most critical thing for the supplier to do is communicate with users, and that is not what is happening properly in this case. Users would be far more content and willing to deal with bugs long term if they were kept informed of known issues and updated with progress on fixing them. Users would be more willing to give constructive feedback and work on beta-builds too.

Having a comprehensive forum where all users and PM staff interact is just plain common sense. In my experience a well organised web FAQ/forum can reduce individual support requests by up to 70% (been there, done that). So it benefits users and PM staff.

I'm not sure that a survey is the answer - but it could be if we get nowhere in the short-term. At this point it would be good if we could just discuss our concerns and ideas openly with PM staff. I don't think any of us want to bash PM - I certainly don't. We need PM to continue, to grow, and to provide reasonable ongoing support ... I'm sure the many users who appreciate the software would actively support that.

[whoispankaj]

Yes the key point is communication..

[Jackpilot]

I agree with the idea that the conversion to new data may be one source of problems..See....I am using the old Nav data, before the conversion to Navigraph, and I get the same problems...but I am using the new builds for CDU and GC which probably try to accomodate the new Navdata format....back to trouble!! big mess

HEY GUYS IF SOMEONE HAS A WINNING BULLETPROOF COMBO: ie A NAV DATA CYCLE AND XXX BUILDS THAT WORK TOGETHER IN A STABLE MANNER WITH NO PROBS...PLEASE PLEASE POST HERE THE APPROPRIATE DETAILS SO THAT WE CAN RETURN TO OUR COCKPITS AND ENJOY FLYING WHILE WAITING FOR PM TO SORT THINGS OUT.

WHAT ABOUT THAT...??

[michelmvd]

Try to come back to topic.

Did tests with the new testnavdata on the PM site (0704), but no improvement at all.
All known and reported problems are remaining and now, even the SID's aren't drawn correctly anymore.

Have reported back to Enrico. It's just no fun anymore to fly. It looks we are a long way from home.

B. rgds
Michel

[PeterH]

Hello mauriceb. Please do not misunderstand what .... If I was having the trouble you folks are I would be very upset that I could not fly as I want to!!! So I am not offended and I encourage you to continue to let PM know how you feel. :D

Hi Bob,

since you are quite happy with your setup and obviously not having the problems the rest of this PM community has, would you mind to let us have the details of your setup version / built No.s?? PLEEEASE :D

This would probably make at least a few people happier for the tim being.:-D

Thanks a lot in advance.

Best regards

Peter

[Jackpilot]

That's exactly what I asked .....

Hello..earth calling!!!!