Trim wheel position FSUIPC offset not working?

[Clamb]

Hi,
I'm trying to read offset 73A5, which is "Trim wheel position requested, if not in manual mode, in degrees *100(so varying between -400 and +1350).If in manual mode, this reads -9999." However, when displaying it using FSUIPCs logging function it always reads "0". (Type set to U16 or S16).
FSUIPC support was enabled during installation. I'm able to read offset 73C8, which shows CPT QNH setting for example. So Jeehell <-> FSUIPC seems to be working, but the trim offset stays 0.
Can somebody confirm this? Or any ideas how to solve this?

Best regards
Axel

[Clamb]

Anybody =/?

[OmniAtlas]

No idea but I will be planning to interface my throttle trim wheel soon. I would be interested to see how you progress.

Are you using fs2phidgets? What type of motor are you using?


Regards.

[Jan737]

Hi Axel,

Maybe you can ask Pete Dowson @FSUIPC forum

Regards

Jan

[Clamb]

Thank Jan, I may ask Pete over there. But I highly doubt it's a FSUIPC problem.



No idea but I will be planning to interface my throttle trim wheel soon. I would be interested to see how you progress.
Are you using fs2phidgets? What type of motor are you using?
Regards.

The throttle I'm trying to interface is, as far as I know, an older one from FDS. the Trim-wheel is connected to a stepper motor from Phidgets ( http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=23&product_id=3330_0 ) via a reducing gear, resulting in a pretty small step-size.
The trim scale is directly connected to a 360° Potentiometer. My interface-plan is probably way too complicated, but it's working so far pretty well :D

The heart of the interface is an Arduino Mega2560 (I've quite some experience with Arduinos and love those little chips). The potentiometer is read out with a 16-bit ADC (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1085) for very very good position accuracy. It registers every so slight movement of the trimwheel :-). The ADC transmits the current trim-wheel position to the Arduino via a I2C bus.

A DRV8825 Stepper motor driver ( https://www.pololu.com/product/2133 ) is connected to the Arduino to drive the stepper motor without much coding on the Arduino. Even with 1/32 step size I'm reaching speeds way higher than needed. The stepper motor can actually be powered with up to 2.8A per coil, he DRV8825 reaches only about 2A per coil continuously with a cooling fan attached. However, 2A seems to be more than enough for the trim wheel. With the motor holding position, you need quite a lot of force to turn the trim wheel manually.

The Arduino compares the current trim wheel position received from the ADC (Potentiometer) with the target position which is supposed to be received via a Serial connection to the PC from FSUIPC with a .LUA script and moves the motor accordingly.

I've already successfully tested this setup using the default-FSUPC-trim Offset, but this way I'm not able to read out weather auto-trim is active or not, this is why I need the Jeehell Trim-Offsets.

I hope the setup is understandable :D

Best regards
Axel

[Clamb]

Accidental double-post

[jeddmc]

have you try using mobiflight
i try used and its read value from offset 73AE for trim wheel
trying to build from old FDS TQ

[OmniAtlas]

The throttle I'm trying to interface is, as far as I know, an older one from FDS. the Trim-wheel is connected to a stepper motor from Phidgets ( http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=23&product_id=3330_0 ) via a reducing gear, resulting in a pretty small step-size.
The trim scale is directly connected to a 360° Potentiometer. My interface-plan is probably way too complicated, but it's working so far pretty well :D

The heart of the interface is an Arduino Mega2560 (I've quite some experience with Arduinos and love those little chips). The potentiometer is read out with a 16-bit ADC (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1085) for very very good position accuracy. It registers every so slight movement of the trimwheel :-). The ADC transmits the current trim-wheel position to the Arduino via a I2C bus.

A DRV8825 Stepper motor driver ( https://www.pololu.com/product/2133 ) is connected to the Arduino to drive the stepper motor easily. Even with 1/32 step size I'm reaching speeds way higher than needed. The stepper motor can actually be powered with up to 2.8A per coil, he DRV8825 reaches only about 2A per coil continuously with a cooling fan attached. However, 2A seems to be more than enough for the trim wheel. With the motor holding position, you need quite a lot of force to turn the trim wheel manually.

The Arduino compares the current trim wheel position received from the ADC (Potentiometer) with the target position which is supposed to be received via a Serial connection to the PC from FSUIPC with a .LUA script and moves the motor accordingly.

I've already successfully tested this setup using the default-FSUPC-trim Offset, but this way I'm not able to read out weather auto-trim is active or not, this is why I need the Jeehell Trim-Offsets.

I hope the setup is understandable :D

Best regards
Axel
https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif

Hi Axel, thanks for sharing and providing insight --- yes, sounds complicated for a novice like me!

Simon has got his trim working with opencockpit, but to tell you the truth SIOC seems even more confusing.

I was considering using FS2Phidgets based on this guide by F2Approach (http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1003521/18061351/1336360956217/F2A+-+configuring+the+B737+throttle.pdf?token=hRfdmX3arlgTbTrQNXMz3WGUXW0%3D).

I am also considering using DAVATX (available in the misc file section) which allows you to interface phidget cards with FSX/P3D however the program only works with a stepper motor.

Apparently there is a newer version (beta) which works with DC motors and ardruinos but the author has been unresponsive, and is ?no longer releasing the software. http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27585&highlight=DVATX

Would like experienced builders opinions what would be the best way to go about this.

Thanks,

Ben

[Clamb]

have you try using mobiflight
i try used and its read value from offset 73AE for trim wheel
trying to build from old FDS TQ
Thats interesting, I'll have a look at it. Would be very strange if mobiflight could read it but FSUIPC itself is not showing anything.


Hi Axel, thanks for sharing and providing insight --- yes, sounds complicated for a novice like me!
Simon has got his trim working with opencockpit, but to tell you the truth SIOC seems even more confusing.
I was considering using FS2Phidgets based on this guide by F2Approach (http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1003521/18061351/1336360956217/F2A+-+configuring+the+B737+throttle.pdf?token=hRfdmX3arlgTbTrQNXMz3WGUXW0%3D).

I am also considering using DAVATX (available in the misc file section) which allows you to interface phidget cards with FSX/P3D however the program only works with a stepper motor.

Apparently there is a newer version (beta) which works with DC motors and ardruinos but the author has been unresponsive, and is ?no longer releasing the software. http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27585&highlight=DVATX

Would like experienced builders opinions what would be the best way to go about this.

Thanks,

Ben

If I had to choose hardware to interface a throttle which has nothing in it (yet). I'd use a stepper motor like the one which is build in my throttle. High torque, 0.9° step size (or even smaller when directly attaced to the trim wheel). But instead of a 360° pot, I'd use a high resolution encoder with something like 400 steps/revolution to calculate the current trim wheel position. Starting position could either be detected by a end switch or or a hall-effect sensor.
I would not use a DC motor, because you have to deal with acceleration/deceleration and so on, which in my experience can be quite a pain in the ***. In my opinion stepper motors are a great solution for this.

I haven't really much experience with SIOC / opencockpits. I bought a servo card from them some time ago, but hated the SIOC interace.

The upside with SIOC is that it's widely used in the FS community and you'll probably find a solution to drive the trim wheel with a stepper motor via SIOC. Arduino might be slightly more complex

[sstusek]

Hi Axel,
Try using offset 73AE.
Regards,
Simon
... Don't use the 73A5 offset, it has been replaced by 73AE due to collision with an already assigned offset... MAN PITCH TRIM cannot be user triggered, it has to be because of failure/mis configuring the OVHD systems. If the trim is not taken over by my software, the offset 73AE will read -9999.Regards,JL

[Clamb]

Hi Axel,
Try using offset 73AE.
Regards,
Simon
I just did that an see there, it worked. Would be great if the documentation could be updated. Took my quite some time looking for the error :???:

[jeehell]

I just did that an see there, it worked. Would be great if the documentation could be updated. Took my quite some time looking for the error :???:
Well I just checked, the documentation contained inside the last full installer package is up to date...... it is the ONLY one which is kept updated "regularly".

[fisfro]

No idea but I will be planning to interface my throttle trim wheel soon. I would be interested to see how you progress.

Are you using fs2phidgets? What type of motor are you using?


Regards.

Hello ,

im using the fds trim wheels with the jh software with my own programmed driver. The driver is communicating with the phidget controller and read back the wheel axis over an fsuipc offset.
Although as workaround - setting the trim to 0 after touchdown will be done by the driver.....

so if somebody with fds trim wheels want to give it a try I will send you my software ....

Robert

[jeddmc]

Hi

i'd like to try
using mobiflight seems bit lag



Thanks


Hello ,

im using the fds trim wheels with the jh software with my own programmed driver. The driver is communicating with the phidget controller and read back the wheel axis over an fsuipc offset.
Although as workaround - setting the trim to 0 after touchdown will be done by the driver.....

so if somebody with fds trim wheels want to give it a try I will send you my software ....

Robert

[Clamb]

Well I just checked, the documentation contained inside the last full installer package is up to date...... it is the ONLY one which is kept updated "regularly".

Okay, I only cheched the documentation on your website. Didn't know that it was out-to-date. Sorry
Thanks everyone for the help.


If had to "redesign" or build a new throttle quadrant. I'd propably use the same stepper motor as installed in my current throttle ( http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=23&product_id=3330_0 ) , controlled by a beefy driver ( https://www.pololu.com/product/2970 ) and position read out by a high-resolution encoder ( https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11102 ) in combination with a end switch or hall-effect-sensor to find the starting position. Everything would be controlled by an Arduino.

Best regards

[fisfro]

but I think mobiflight is not using phidget servo-controller- or?

If i'm wrong send me a PN and I will provide you the phidget driver for jh.

Robert

[jeehell]

Okay, I only cheched the documentation on your website. Didn't know that it was out-to-date. Sorry
Thanks everyone for the help.
I do NOT have any website.
The website you refer to is probably Omniatlas/Ben unofficial webiste (flybysoar). Though it was very kindly set up by Omniatlas, this is NOT where I put my files.

[OmniAtlas]

I do NOT have any website.
The website you refer to is probably Omniatlas/Ben unofficial webiste (flybysoar). Though it was very kindly set up by Omniatlas, this is NOT where I put my files.

Hi JL - the website links to the document on your server -- http://www.jeehell.org/Offsets.pdf

I can remove this if you wish. Regards.

[Clamb]

I do NOT have any website.
The website you refer to is probably Omniatlas/Ben unofficial webiste (flybysoar). Though it was very kindly set up by Omniatlas, this is NOT where I put my files.
Oh...I see :roll:
Sorry again, I'm a pretty new Jeehell FMGS user :eek:

[jeehell]

HI Ben

Hi JL - the website links to the document on your server -- http://www.jeehell.org/Offsets.pdf

I can remove this if you wish. Regards.

This is not what I meant. Only the installer package is always up to date (when possible). I have many, many things to do, work, family etc, and keeping the documentation up to date without forgetting a few things is a nightmare.
That's all :D

JL

[OmniAtlas]

If I had to choose hardware to interface a throttle which has nothing in it (yet). I'd use a stepper motor like the one which is build in my throttle. High torque, 0.9° step size (or even smaller when directly attaced to the trim wheel). But instead of a 360° pot, I'd use a high resolution encoder with something like 400 steps/revolution to calculate the current trim wheel position. Starting position could either be detected by a end switch or or a hall-effect sensor.
I would not use a DC motor, because you have to deal with acceleration/deceleration and so on, which in my experience can be quite a pain in the ***. In my opinion stepper motors are a great solution for this.

I haven't really much experience with SIOC / opencockpits. I bought a servo card from them some time ago, but hated the SIOC interace.

The upside with SIOC is that it's widely used in the FS community and you'll probably find a solution to drive the trim wheel with a stepper motor via SIOC. Arduino might be slightly more complex

Cheers, thanks for the tips -- I've heard varied opinions regarding stepper vs dc motors; a few of our fellow cockpit builders here have told me that they had difficulties with stepper motors and FMGS and have gone back to DC motors.

Do you know what would be the best torque/rated speed ? Some of the motors on the phidget website go up to 8.46 kg/cm at a rated speed of 28 RPM.

[OmniAtlas]

HI Ben


This is not what I meant. Only the installer package is always up to date (when possible). I have many, many things to do, work, family etc, and keeping the documentation up to date without forgetting a few things is a nightmare.
That's all :D

JL

No worries JL, this is after all just a hobby for most of us; no one should be complaining with your free software and continual updates; I think airbus builders have it good.

[Clamb]

Cheers, thanks for the tips -- I've heard varied opinions regarding stepper vs dc motors; a few of our fellow cockpit builders here have told me that they had difficulties with stepper motors and FMGS and have gone back to DC motors.

Do you know what would be the best torque/rated speed ? Some of the motors on the phidget website go up to 8.46 kg/cm at a rated speed of 28 RPM.

I think steppers are better for this job because they can be controlled much more precisely than DC motors. The required speed/torque depends on the transmission between stepper and wheel. My stepper is rated for 11,2kg*cm, 2250 when powered with 12V@2,8A. I'm only powering it with ~1,5A, which is more than enough. You need quite a bit of force to turn it manually when the motor is engaged.

Here is video showing a small speed-test of the setup:
http://dns.reinemuth.de:152/s/lzKBKDAmMsPDTEY

Obviously it's way too fast for normal operation, it was only a test what the motor is capable of. At the beginning you can hear some "grinding". This is the motor stalling due to the mass of the wheel. This does not happen during normal operation.

Here is a video during normal operation:
http://dns.reinemuth.de:152/s/IHxXI8ZDW0yNC5S

It pretty dark, but you can see the wheel turning nice and smooth.

Best regards
Axel

[OmniAtlas]

Cheers for the video. Looks like you have your motor all setup pretty well :)

I think I may go for a simpler solution using Frisfro software (utilizes dc motor and potentiometer);


http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11618&stc=1

It seems the solution may have been sitting in front of me all along.

The Leo Bodnar card supports rotary encoders -- I am assuming this may be compatible with the phidget dc motor + encoders.


PHIDGET MOTOR CARD -> DC MOTOR + ENCODER -> BU836X LEO BODNAR <-> FSUIPC <-> JEEHELL FMGS -> outputs back to phidget motor card.

Am I understanding this correctly?

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11619&stc=1

[Clamb]

Has this setup been confirmed working? I guess you can do it this way :D
In this setup the logic is controlled by the host PC with the MotorTrimWheelCtr.exe instead of a dedicated microcontroller like my setup, which isn't a bad thing.

PHIDGET MOTOR CARD -> DC MOTOR + ENCODER -> BU836X LEO BODNAR <-> FSUIPC <-> JEEHELL FMGS -> outputs back to phidget motor card.
Yes, but you need to get an initial position at startup. An classic encoder only registers changes in position, relative to the starting position. This means, you either have to set the trim to 0° before startup or add an absolute position detection (end-switch, hall-effect senson, potentiometer).

I've made a schematic of my setup. Looks quite complicated, but...well actually it is :roll:

The picture you posted which shows the battery, DC motor and Potentiometer isn't what you are looking for. With this setup you can regulate the motor speed by turning the pot.

Best regards

[OmniAtlas]

Hi Clamb -- I've purchased a 4 dollar motor encoder to experiment with the leo bodnar card and the FDS A320 wheel control software. I will report back my findings :)

When the plane is on the ground, and the software is started, I believe the trim resets to zero.

In terms of encoder -- yes you are right, it only measures changes in position -- I think it would be possible to set a range of values (limits) with FSUIPC (say from -400 to +1350), when the software starts the trim is at 0, and FSUIPC would be able to read increments or decrements based on the number of pulses you set?

Perhaps the easiest solution is to interface a regular POT, but I am unsure how to do so, or how the motor can feedback to a regular pot.

[OmniAtlas]

Here is a motor I found which may be of interest -- http://www.onlinecontrols.com/mpots.htm

The motors have a potentiometer and a slip clutch.

One of their motors on ebay --

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11638&stc=1


--

Adding a potentiometer to a DC motor -- http://eecs.oregonstate.edu/education/docs/ece111/Section5.pdf

[brianwilliamson]

Gooday Ben, I use a similar motor and OC DC Motor board, for which I have programmed in SIOC.
Make sure you get a motor with a slow enough rpm, and a good variable clutch .

You will need a pot connected to the trim indicator.

Hope this helps..............Brian W.

[OmniAtlas]

Cheers Brian, I think I saw a picture of your setup in one of your previous post.

SIOC scares me but I guess that is one direction to go if you don't mind sharing your script.

Can you recommend a motor?

Regards,

Ben

[brianwilliamson]

Ben....cannot recall the brand of the motor, as it is under the covers at the moment. I can help you out with the script ok .

Let me know how many turns you trim wheel does from full forward to full aft.

You need to get a geared motor probably in the range of 50 to 200 rpm from memory.

Regards................Brian W.

[OmniAtlas]

Cheers Brian -- will get back to you, I still have to order the control board.

I am also still evaluation motor+encoder and phidgets.

I plan to mount the motor directly to the metal shaft that controls the wheel (below the pedestal) so I think I will need a pretty strong one.

[tcane]

Hallo Guys,

Today we can fixed a Programmingproblem with a big help from Axel for interfacing my original A320 Throttle-Trimmwheel.
Again a big thank you, Axel! ;)
Without a small smoother Trimming, all works now very nice! It´s so amazing to see how spin the original Trimwheel in flight. :D
When all runs smooth and great to see, i post here i Video off course.

But i have a another question and it´s even more special to Jean-Luc.
When i was landed, normally the Trimwheel goes automatically back to the "0" Position, right? So as far as i know, Jeehell done this in the Software but didn´t sent it to the Motor especial to the Offset or? Because there's no happen like this after i touch down. When it´s not so a big problem, it would be very nice when you can integrate it maybe on your next update?
Looking forward. ;)

Cheers
Florian

[sstusek]

Hi, for trim reset after touch down I made additional line in trim sioc script in terms of :

var... Ground, Link FSUIPC_IN, Offset $0366
var... FMGS flight phase, Link FSUIPC_IN, Offset $73C0
If flight phase = 6 and ground = 1 then reset trim to 0 after 5s.

It's not perfect but so far I am satisfied. There should also be some other additional conditions, PITCH ATT < 2.5° and something like stop trim reset if ground = 0 ( at go around)...

I have another problem with trim offset 73AE. The value I get on the ground (auto trim not operational) is 55537 and when airborne the values go to 50, 120,... (-400 to 1350) as they should. As long as the trim values are positive, from 0 to 1350 everything works great. The problem occurs when trim values get negative! For example if trim is -0.7DN on the ECAM offset 73AE will read 65468 instead of -70!? That will confuse trim script positions calculation and rotate trim wheels to max 13,5°.
It looks like when trim is negative offset 73AE will switch to FSX Trim down values 49153 to 65535. If nothing else will have to rewrite trim script for 49153 to 65535 values.
Has anyone met with this problem or is this happening to me only?

Thanks for any suggestion.

[Danilo]

Hi Simon,

as you know I'm not familiar with Jeehell offsets, but it seems that offset 73AE has a signed value, so probably you just have to correctly define the signed variable in SIOC with "Type 1" at the end.

Here is the example for reading a value of standard offset for elevator trim, with values in range from -16383 to +16383:

Var 1 Link FSUIPC_IN Offset $0BC2 Length 2 Type 1

[sstusek]

Hi Danilo,

Thank you for the tip, you are so right ;). I forgot about assigned value with Type 1! It looks like it is working now as it should. I am still having some trim disconnects but I think that might be related to trim threshold setting.
Thank you again.

[dcutugno]

Hallo Guys,

Today we can fixed a Programmingproblem with a big help from Axel for interfacing my original A320 Throttle-Trimmwheel.
Again a big thank you, Axel! ;)
Without a small smoother Trimming, all works now very nice! It´s so amazing to see how spin the original Trimwheel in flight.
:D
When all runs smooth and great to see, i post here i Video off course.

But i have a another question and it´s even more special to Jean-Luc.
When i was landed, normally the Trimwheel goes automatically back to the "0" Position, right? So as far as i know, Jeehell done this in the Software but didn´t sent it to the Motor especial to the Offset or? Because there's no happen like this after i touch down. When it´s not so a big problem, it would be very nice when you can integrate it maybe on your next update?
Looking forward. ;)

Cheers
Florian

So in the end with was the best method to interface all the quadrant? i have a quadrant too but have to figure how to do it, can you explain witch motor did you used?
thanks!

[OmniAtlas]

So in the end with was the best method to interface all the quadrant? i have a quadrant too but have to figure how to do it, can you explain witch motor did you used?
thanks!

Hi Dcutugno,

I now have some time to attempt to motorize my throttle :)

Reading through the thread again it seems the most obvious and straight forward route would be:

1. Use a stepper motor, such as the one available from Phidgets: http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=23&product_id=3330_0

2. To create a closed feedback loop, connect a 360 degree pot to the trim wheel.

3. Use either an OC stepper motor board (http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/stepper-motors-card-p-49.html?language=en) (SIOC software), or a phidgets board (http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1067) (fs2phidget software).

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.