Getting Panels Engraved?

[Henju]

Hi all,
After developing my sim through bought panels, I'm now beginning to come to the stage where some of the panels are quite specific. Unfortunately, I don't have my own laser CNC, or a spare $10,000+ lying around :roll:. The panel in question is the Sperry SP-300, an older type of MCP used in the late classics... Its unique floppy AP paddles is what makes it difficult to find. Well, I thought I'd give designing a go, and it turned out to be rather good (Hover over the image for a larger size)
10085
The design is to scale and has all the separate layers for a panel, In fact, if anyone wants it, I can upload it:-D
Anyhow, I'm sure not everyone had an expensive machine, so how do you get those fantastic results? I currently reside in Australia, but I am unaware of where I could get such a job dome professionally without the high commercial costs and whilst also achieving that aircraft grade look and back lighting capable?

Any ideas are much appreciated,

Regards,

[Jan737]

Hi,

You can go to a Fablab, where you can lasercut your panels by your own. At a Fablab you can rent a i.e. lasercutter do make your project.
There is one in Adelaide: http://fablabadelaide.org.au. Closed at the moment but maybe you can get information when they opening again.


Jan

[Henju]

Thanks, That's exactly what I was looking for!

Have a great Easter

Regards,
Henri

[JohnB]

Hi Henri


I have a laser (bought originally with the intention of making my panels and then selling it ...but its just too much fun to sell!!!!)

I have made many panels for other users (here and other forum) and a few for other users..I am definitely NOT expensive as this is not a huge money making enterprise as such its more to further the hobby for people and put a sim in the grasp of the poor (like me):)
Currently, however, I am restricted to A4 (or so) sheets. But when I move to my new house later this year I will be making a larger cutting bed (around 600 x400)... people tell me my work is as good as the commercial boys so you can always ask!

( I can pop some pictures up of my work)



John

[xp-wym]

Hi Henri


I have a laser (bought originally with the intention of making my panels and then selling it ...but its just too much fun to sell!!!!)

I have made many panels for other users (here and other forum) and a few for other users..I am definitely NOT expensive as this is not a huge money making enterprise as such its more to further the hobby for people and put a sim in the grasp of the poor (like me):)
Currently, however, I am restricted to A4 (or so) sheets. But when I move to my new house later this year I will be making a larger cutting bed (around 600 x400)... people tell me my work is as good as the commercial boys so you can always ask!

( I can pop some pictures up of my work)



John

Hi John,

What sort of laser have you got? I am thinking of getting one myself.

Cheers,

[Henju]

Hi John,

Sorry about not replying sooner, I must have forgotten to turn on notifications!
Anyway, that sounds like a good prospect, how much will you be charging? the MCP is 470 x 80...

Thanks for your help
Henri

[iwik]

Henri,
Sorry to go off topic, how did you get on with your O/C mcp not being recognized a while back?.

Les

[Henju]

Ah, I just ended up using an arduino to interface it, I think it was a burnt chip or something... I was planning on giving it back to OC but dubbed it easier to interface it myself, seeing I was going to need a replacement anyways, but nevertheless, I'm now moving forward to a proper replica of the classic MCP. Again, thanks for your help in the other thread! I think we all gave it our best shot!

Henri

[JohnB]

HI Henri
unfortunately I cannot make a panel of that size just yet.
I made my first MCP in two pieces but will put that right when I make a bigger cutting bed later in the year as I am not over happy with the join also when I made this one

10091

it was before I had decided to go for a proper, full size, authentic pit.

John

[Henju]

Ah, It's all right!
If you ever can do bigger sizes, it would be great to do business:)
Thanks for your effort
I may still need smaller panels such as gauges in 50mm diameter...

Henri

[JohnB]

Hi Henri

Will let everyone know when I get to cut bigger...I would like to go big enough to cut the MIP but that's above my pay grade to make a bed large enough.

I have made the whole set of gauges for the 737 800 including the double ones on the overhead.
here's an example of the prototype Diff press gauge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P816teW8kbo

brake pressure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK-SkqUw7-s

even a "wet compass"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWa9eh_dys0

and the hardest to design and get working, by far
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmkL0cHXK8E

oh except for maybe this panel (its the prototypical so its battered about a bit.but it gives the general idea)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDKEo13U92c

I have around 85% of the pit sorted

more pix if anyone wants them

John

[JohnB]

well it started out as a cheap Chinese lase from ebay.

When I bought it I pretty much knew I would have to change the main control board, fairy soon as, from reviews, they seem to break within anything from 20 mins to 3 months.. So if you are looking at the K40 type laser bank on spending at least £500 on a pro controller...with mine the controller failed (expected) the power supply failed next and in doing so supplied too much current to the tube. However it now means I know the machine inside out LOL. & I am the owner of the worlds most expensive "cheap Chinese Laser":roll:

John

[Henju]

That sounds good, but I am needing the old classic engine egt, n1 epr oil temp and so on gauges... (737-3-500)

Thanks
Henri

(I would love to see some pics!)

[JohnB]

That sounds good, but I am needing the old classic engine egt, n1 epr oil temp and so on gauges... (737-3-500)

Thanks
Henri



(I would love to see some pics!)

Hi Henri

Any gauge can be made the same way I made those...all I need is a GOOD photo and a dimension or two...oh and details of how you would mount it..
other stuff like whether you'd need lenses etc etc

I might start a new thread for pictures of my panels to save flooding your topic.

John

[Jerrymc3]

Henri

I was curious as to what you make your panels out of. My son used to work for a sign company that had a laser and we used it to make panels for my B747-400 Cockpit out of Acrylic and Romark. Unfortunately, he quit before we could get finished. The company said they would finish them but they did a really poor job and forgot the Anti-Ice panel so I wasn't able to do the lettering for it and I cracked my MCP panel when I was drilling into it. (Should have used a stop on my drill bit, made me so mad). I considered getting a laser but I would have to use it to make the money to pay for it. I've just retired because of my health and I'm afraid to take the risk.

Jerry10103101041010610105

[Henju]

Acrylic would probably be the most preferable method for the gauges, unless you do steel :lol:
Using the white acrylic, painting it the color, and then lasering down to the white layer revealing the engraving. That's how most of the bought panels are done... it gives a very professional look.

The 747 pit is lovely! it is quite the piece, maybe re-furbish it one day!

Henri

[Jerrymc3]

:lol:
Using the white acrylic, painting it the color, and then lasering down to the white layer revealing the engraving.

Thats how I did mine. Is it how Open Cockpits does theirs. Do you use acrylic or metal?

Jerry

[JohnB]

If you are going to use back lighting, then the better acrylic to use is in fact 'Opal' instead of white as the white i quite opaque..

Or better still is Opal for the very front panel but clear for the rear mounting panel. (same price though)

John

[Henju]

Gosh, I wouldn't have known the difference... I just assumed white is opal! :?
As you can probably tell I've never build my own panels!

Henri

[Henju]

I found a site called Hispapanels which do custom panels, looking around the 80 EUR mark for an MCP size... has anyone ever used these?

http://www.hispapanels.com/tienda/en/custom/239-white-painted-panel-thickness-3-mm.html

Henri

[JohnB]

I found a site called Hispapanels which do custom panels, looking around the 80 EUR mark for an MCP size... has anyone ever used these?

http://www.hispapanels.com/tienda/en/custom/239-white-painted-panel-thickness-3-mm.html

Henri

That sounds quite expensive.....maybe I should take another look at my prices :grin:.


John

[Jerrymc3]

I have made many panels for other users (here and other forum) and a few for other users..I am definitely NOT expensive as this is not a huge money making enterprise as such its more to further the hobby for people and put a sim in the grasp of the poor (like me):)
( I can pop some pictures up of my work)
John

Could you send me some pics of your panels, not gauges. I might see if you are interested in remaking some of mine that didn't turn out to well. The only thing is they would be brown rather than gray. I didn't actually use the Boeing Brown formula. I got the paint from Sherwin Williams (USA) and they tried to match the color but it turned out with a little more red than the Boeing color. Incidentally, I used Adobe Illustrator to design my panels. I live in Dallas, Texas USA, not sure if that's an issue.

Jerry

[JohnB]

Could you send me some pics of your panels, not gauges. I might see if you are interested in remaking some of mine that didn't turn out to well. The only thing is they would be brown rather than gray. I didn't actually use the Boeing Brown formula. I got the paint from Sherwin Williams (USA) and they tried to match the color but it turned out with a little more red than the Boeing color. Incidentally, I used Adobe Illustrator to design my panels. I live in Dallas, Texas USA, not sure if that's an issue.

Jerry

Hi Jerry

I have started a thread and am adding my panels day by day ( at least the ones I took photo's of before bubble wrapping them).

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29330

The colour should not be and issue ..if.. your company can supply the RAL number of the colour they made then mine should be the same .... Or I have an excellent paint mixing company near me so maybe a swatch from you ...but they charge £17 for one spray can yeah its not cheap but I am using cans for my panels, at the moment, until I move and have a proper workshop.

I use Coreldraw so I can export to my laser real easy. I usually end up redrawing imported drawings, but hey, I am getting quite quick at knocking out drawings now.

USA is no real problem except the exchange rate and shipping..... I have guys with my panels in Canada, USA, Israel, France and Italy....ha ha sounds like I am a big company:roll: ...its like just a few panels in Italy, (They are airbus panels for a guy here) maybe 3 in USA in USA etc !!!!! (In England I have a bit more ;)). But you get the picture. For one off's or special panels always give me a yell ya never know.
(I am a semi retired plumber by trade).

John

[Henju]

That sounds quite expensive.....maybe I should take another look at my prices :grin:.


John

Lol, I mean what...:lol:
How much would you be charging...?

Henri

[JohnB]

Lol, I mean what...:lol:
How much would you be charging...?

Henri

Hi Henri

Easily half that.!

John

[m0ng00se]

If you are going to use back lighting, then the better acrylic to use is in fact 'Opal' instead of white as the white i quite opaque..

Or better still is Opal for the very front panel but clear for the rear mounting panel. (same price though)

John

Hi John,

Nice work on the panels ... however, I have also made some panels, first white acrylic, then opal .. the problem with opal is that when the text is not backlit, it does not appear nice and white. Best is to use clear acrylic, I have found a great thread that explains that : http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=2107.0;nowap

[JohnB]

Hi M0ng00se

Yes I hear what you are saying but I honestly feel too many people get too hung up on tiny details like this...I go for a 'good' authenticity but if I want exact I would save up and buy a real one LOL

I would always choose opal over white because :-

1.The white is way way to stark and it looks so unreal on just about every panel I have seen.Well engraved lettering is perfectly readable in ambient light
2. Most (or at least many) home cockpit users have the back lighting on mainly due to being in a room with ambient lighting dimmed so there is either no reflections on the screens or in the case of overhead projectors bleaching out the display.
3.Have the "it must be white" folks seen a real cockpit...hardly white more filthy dirty LMAO
10171

I rest my case ;)

John

[m0ng00se]

Hi M0ng00se

Yes I hear what you are saying but I honestly feel too many people get too hung up on tiny details like this...I go for a 'good' authenticity but if I want exact I would save up and buy a real one LOL

I would always choose opal over white because :-

1.The white is way way to stark and it looks so unreal on just about every panel I have seen.Well engraved lettering is perfectly readable in ambient light

John

I have real boeing panels and they are white letters, not the "dull" opal look, so not sure what is unreal about that ? Also, when you are making IBL panels like the real ones, you do need the clear acrylic for light to spread out inside the panel. I never use white acrylic.

[JohnB]

Well I have to say the difference between the white in your picture and the white in my picture is, although both real panels,..I have never yet seen a, in use, 737 cockpit as shiny as the one in your picture. It seems to me that the fact it appears brand new with no dirt, that it looks,somehow, less authentic.... if you see what I mean? crazy I know :???:..its similar to people that get stressed when a panel gets chipped or scratched, I mean the ones in daily use look like a bad day in a war zone.:D

In my experience opal is way easier to back light, putting it easily in the realm of the less skilled hobbyist,( a simple led strip for an entire bank of panels) with easily controllable light bleed giving a perfectly acceptable (for 99% of people) finish.

If people want to make a plastic "real" 737 (or whatever), that's great, go buy genuine panels or even these commercial panels that go to the nth degree for "realism". Pay anything upwards of £130 for a half decent bare audio control panel (without buttons).

I, for one, am not fortunate enough to even begin to afford that type of build (and going by the guys I get emails from, they ain't either LOL)

So for a compromise and affordability, as an example, I can do all the Audio control panel parts in a kit (using opal :wink:) for £20-30 including buttons & UK postage ...no contest!!!!!! I do it to put the hobby within the reach of people like myself ....well poor basically :(. BTW this is not an advert! As I make hardly anything on my stuff...in fact quite often just break even

I have one real 737 & one real 767 pilots that are perfectly happy with opal.

So I shall now bow out of the 'whiter than white' challenge and leave that to the soap powder advertising campaigns. :lol:

John

[m0ng00se]

Well I have to say the difference between the white in your picture and the white in my picture is, although both real panels,..I have never yet seen a, in use, 737 cockpit as shiny as the one in your picture. It seems to me that the fact it appears brand new with no dirt, that it looks,somehow, less authentic.... if you see what I mean? crazy I know :???:..its similar to people that get stressed when a panel gets chipped or scratched, I mean the ones in daily use look like a bad day in a war zone.:D

In my experience opal is way easier to back light, putting it easily in the realm of the less skilled hobbyist,( a simple led strip for an entire bank of panels) with easily controllable light bleed giving a perfectly acceptable (for 99% of people) finish.

If people want to make a plastic "real" 737 (or whatever), that's great, go buy genuine panels or even these commercial panels that go to the nth degree for "realism". Pay anything upwards of £130 for a half decent bare audio control panel (without buttons).

John

John,

Just trying to help mate and share my experience. As I say, I started with white, then tried opal, but after I bought the real panels, I saw how they do it and then moved to clear acrylic with a thin white layer on top before painting and then engrave down to the white layer.

Just saying, you don't have to buy real panels, you can make them for not a lot more than what you make them now, just a slightly different technique.

I have a CNC mill as well, so I can mill the back to fit IBL PCBs (not shown in picture, just used iphone torch to test). I use laser to engrave. Example below is my prototype DU panels:

10175

10176

P.S. btw .. I'm sure the real 737 panels I have must be used, they are stamped 1991 on the back, so they are already 24 years old :)

[JohnB]

Grr this forum ican be so frustrating!!

Just typed a reply only to lose it as the forum is too busy....It says it saved it but lord knows where!!!!

Ah well now.... yes .....
I entirely agree that white over clear and grey over white is the proper engineering way to go. But in my experience while the laser is incredibly accurate in the x/y axis its pretty grim on the z axis... The slightest change in tube temp or air assist or just about anything happening within 40 miles changes the intensity of the beam results in areas of white being completely removed or grey not being removed...How did you get that accuracy..more white paint?.. (I did try that but got differing back light intensity)...I find with the exact same settings even ambient temp affects the power.

Whats the secret??????

John

[m0ng00se]

Whats the secret??????

John


I also tried paint first, but that didn't work for me, so I had to come up with a way of getting a thin white layer on top, so my secret is plasticard. I used 0.25mm on the existing panels, but I measured the real panels and they are 5.52mm, so I will be using 0.5mm plasticard on 5mm clear acrylic next. Even the 0.25mm gives you plenty of leeway in terms of the "Z-axis" on the laser. Sometimes, I find some letters are not very crisp or all the way through the paint, then I just select those letters and run the laser again. 0.5mm plasticard will even give more leeway. Works a treat !! Try it, you won't regret it :) Plasticard on ebay is dirt cheap, clear acrylic is cheap, you've got the paint and that's it. Much better than opal in my opinion ;)

This was my very first test panel using this method. Don't worry too much about the backlight photo, again this was just tested with a single amber 5mm LED, hence the little unevenness.

10177

Then put it in your cockpit, used and abuse the **** out of it to make it look dirty the way you like it :D

[JohnB]

Ah getting better prices !
can you bond it to acrylic with the acrylic cement (the Chloroform type stuff?)

John

[m0ng00se]

John,

After the panel is machined (or probably cut in your case), I put it face down on a sheet of plasticard and then apply Tamiya Extra Thin Cement with the supplied little brush just around the edges. It's like water and bonds them quite well together. Then just a sharp knife and fine grit sandpaper to finish it off before I spray paint it.

[Zlatko]

Hi Guys,
What sort of primer you are using to prepare Plexiglas surface.
And then – what paint – Acrylic water soluble, Acetone soluble? Or Epoxy Enamel based. I am totally lost.

[m0ng00se]

I just use Hycote White Plastic primer, then I use a black matt layer as a light blocker, then acrylic for the top coat. I tried cellulose before, but it doesn't engrave so well with my laser.

[JohnB]

HI Guys

I spray cellulose matt.... no primers needed!


John

[Zlatko]

Thanks a lot. I’ll give a try to both methods.
Recently, I used unknown primer for plastic plus unknown black paint (water soluble),
I bought them from a shop selling car paints. Left it to dry 3-4 days and when I swept the surface with a damp cloth, the paint started to come off and the surface became stained. I suppose that is not normal.
Most probably I am a bad … bad painter ...:oops: :-?
PS- John, when you say cellulose matt, is that nitro-cellulose spray for cars?

[Zlatko]

Thanks a lot. John, when you say cellulose mat, is that nitrocellulose spray for cars ?
I'll give a try to both methods. Few days ago , when i first painted a piece of Plexiglass, i used unknown primer and
unknown black paint which i bough from a shop selling paints for cars. And i left the panel to dry 3-4 days. Then i swept the surface with a damp cloth and the paint started to come- off. I suppose - that is not the way it should be and i am a very bad painter :)

[JohnB]

Hi Zlatco
yep thats the stuff.....
My local place also makes it up into spray cans..very convenient but its like x5 the price.

you can engrave it after about an hour careful though its soft still then and you can leave thumbrints etc..BUT a scouring pad with LOADS of soap and a light touch can often get rid of mess ups.

Spray straight onto the acrylica when you have removed the film (and of course all the dust that sticks with static) do NOT sand the acrylic to get a key as with some thinners the finish can "pickle"..straight onto the sheet work just fine.

If you are using a laser... I now tape the sheet in place cut all the cutouts and outer shape, lift it out, spray the whole thing, leave an hour, pop it back into the cutout and then run the engrave ! nuch nicer finish I have found.

John

[Zlatko]

Thank You, John
I don’t own a laser, and the local sign maker does the cutting/ engraving for me.
But those guys put me trough the challenge to paint the panel my self (pretty awkward decision).
Besides – the way you protecting Plexy from the paint thinner, by keeping the Plexy glossy finish is ingenious. Thanks for the good tip, I am learning something new every single day. ( Most on Saturdays and Sundays though , when people from this brilliant forum are more active. :D Thanks again.

[JohnB]

Hi Zlatko

Its generally ok to spray celly ( not really advisable) over acrylic but not the other way round.
The body trade will tell you use the same throughout...but as celly is a LOT more home spray friendly its well worth the chance...having said that I have not had one panel react or flake since I started.

I would like to see some pics of the panels ???? (they inspire me and others!).
from what part of Blighty do you hail?

John

[Zlatko]

Originally from Bulgaria and live there, apart from the time when I am allocated for a couple of months to Swansea (Wales) or Morden ( South London) . I am really amazed by the fact how many people are building panels, entire sims , electronics, etc. here in Wales, compared to my country. .
For the panels – noting yet to show and to be proud of, just a CorelDraw –ish vague resemblance of a Bendix King Radio Stack for Cessna and a piece of cut Opal Plexy with holes in it. But wait – soon I’ll show you all, what I am capable of ( or at least – what local sign makers are capable of – and this is not much for the moment. :) ( regarding flight sim panels making) . Right from this moment I feel, that at the end of the day I will be looking for your e@mail . But let’s do some experimentation and child’s play first. :)

[capetonian]

Hi Henri


I have a laser (bought originally with the intention of making my panels and then selling it ...but its just too much fun to sell!!!!)

I have made many panels for other users (here and other forum) and a few for other users..I am definitely NOT expensive as this is not a huge money making enterprise as such its more to further the hobby for people and put a sim in the grasp of the poor (like me):)
Currently, however, I am restricted to A4 (or so) sheets. But when I move to my new house later this year I will be making a larger cutting bed (around 600 x400)... people tell me my work is as good as the commercial boys so you can always ask!

( I can pop some pictures up of my work)

John

John, are you still making panels? Can you work with dwg files?

[John_B]

capetonian

Yes I am still making panels what are you after ?

I can work from dwg files but sometimes I have to do a little work on them (not usually a problem) as some text and shapes get a bit "confused" during the import process.
Pop me a copy of the file.

Pm me for my email

John