Large number of flickering/ghost inputs on Master Cards

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hello everyone!

It has been awhile since I've made a SIOC/Opencockpits related thread but am out of my depth on this one.

For some reason, I am getting alot of flickering inputs on all four of my Master Cards, all of which are connected to a single USBExpansion card. The problem only occurs when I perform a lights test or a large number of outputs are turned on.

The flickering inputs affects both used and unused input slots. This causes obvious problems. When connected to flight simulator, random switches will flick on/off despite me not moving the switch in reality. This, in turn, may cause some annunciators to illuminate, and, the illumination of these annunciators causes more inputs to flicker, and so on. What a mess.

I must stress that all wires connecting my cockpit to the master cards are well insulated; no bare metal ends or unnecessary messy wiring. Furthermore, I have seen people with (much!) more "cluttered" wiring using Opencockpits' hardware at various FS shows without any hint of a similar problem.

Furthermore, when testing with all outputs turned OFF in SIOC monitor, every single input works flawlessly without any flickering or interference. In fact, even when certain outputs are turned on individually there are no problems. It's only when the "ALL ON" command is initiated, or a large number of outputs are illuminated, that the problem presents itself.

The problem seems to be slightly worse when 5V power supplies are connected to the master cards and USBExpansion cards. There doesn't appear to be any particular pattern to the interference.

Any help at all on this would be appreciated. This problem is pretty much preventing me from completing any sort of simulated flight without having to manually resynchronize all my switches every time they flick to a random position. If any more information is required, let me know.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
Make sure your P/S has sufficient current available. Are you using a PC p/s, if not try one as they have heaps of current and are cheap. Are you running from a hub, if so it P/S needs to be good. Remember when you do a ALL ON there is a great surge of current
and if P/S is no good or Cable feeding Power to the Master cards are to light then funny things like this can happen.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Thanks for the quick response. To be perfectly honest I hadn't thought of that. I'm running the power supplies from a single hub which is plugged into the mains, so maybe that could indeed be the cause. I'll do some work on this and post back my findings.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
It appears you are defining Master card analogue inputs in sioc script

" Var 0003, name SQ_PotR Link IOCARD_ANALOGIC, Device 03, Input 1, PosL 0, PosC 128, PosR 255"

but you show in your .ini USB analogic.
In which case it should like this
"Var 0014, name FLAPS, Link USB_ANALOGIC, Device 2, Input 1, PosL 58, PosC 126, PosR 205

Just make sure you look thru your SIOC.ini file and read what it says re analogue inputs, not sure how it is written as im
not at home at present.

What I meant about p/s is that you run your Mastercards 5v input from something like PC p/s.

Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Yep! Realised that, USB_ANALOGIC not IOCARD_ANALOGIC :rolleyes:.

I don't have a PC power supply to hand, but I'll try running each individual 5V power supply giving each one a mains plugs of its own rather than running from a hub, see if that makes any difference.

[iwik]

Jack,
Just make sure you give each MasterCard plenty of current. All to many people underestimate p/s required to run bunches
of leds.
Les

[fordgt40]

Jack

Les has given sound advice. Also bear in mind two other points

1) OC do not recommend applying power to the Expansion card - it gets its power via USB
2) There is a known bug with the Expansion card pic rom where it can generate false inputs when 3/4 mastercards are used. This happens only at startup when some inputs are not read. Subsequently when a switch in the same bank has its value changed there can be a "flutter" of activity as SIOC corrects the status on all switch states in that bank. This can be solved by ordering the new PIC Rom from OC, though from your symptoms, it sounds more like a power issue as suggested by Les

Edit
If all else fails, then could you programme a slight delay so that all leds do not come on at once?

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David/Les,

Thanks for your response David, I didn't know about the bug, would certainly perhaps explain some of this weird behaviour. Indeed, I have noticed the flutter of inputs on occasion where I have flicked a switch, but it is not my gravest concern at the moment as it doesn't seem to affect too many of my inputs from observation through SIOC monitor.

I have done some more experimenting. I tried unplugging all of the power supplies (except for one, else my PC just disconnections the card due to too great a current being drawn through the USB). After commanding ALL ON in SIOC Monitor, I can confirm that the flickering input problem was much worse. After plugging another power supply in, it calmed down a little. And so on until all power supplies were plugged in. With all power supplies plugged in, I still get the flickering as per my initial post which is still a significant problem.

On another note, it turns out that I did not actually have a power supply plugged into the USBExpansion card. Upon doing so, the flickering did indeed become much worse, hence this seems to support what you have just said (David).

I'd rather not problem a delay since it really isn't as simple as just occuring when "ALL ON" is commanded. Like I said before, the problem still occurs when a large number of outputs (not necessarily all) are turned on, and the coding is going to get very messy to ensure that no more than "X" outputs are turned on at once (not to mention it defeats the purpose of the annunciators).

I have noticed that two of my master cards appear to be a different version to the other two (some are older than the others). Could this perhaps be a cause? I am genuinely worried that I will never be able to complete another virtual flight without having this problem, it seems so widespread and unpredictable.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
What happens if you remove one mastercard, does it get better?. Make sure you haven't a rogue card.
Les

[iwik]

Jack,
Post a pic of your cards connected up, we may see something you don't.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Bare with me, I'm trying to find my digital camera. I'll upload some photos ASAP. Due to the way they are arranged they might no be much help (USBExpansion card is underneath everything else, all fixed in place), but we'll see!!!

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Right Les, I've got some photos here. Unfortunately none show the physical connection of the master cards to the USBExpansion card since this is on the bottom layer of the setup, which would require a complete dismantle to get to, something I want to avoid if at all possible.

This first photo shows the setup. There are two "layers"; two master cards on the top, and two on the bottom, with the USBExpansion on the bottom right in the middle of everything. Sort of built like a stacked tower, with the top layer made of perspex.

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/100_3778_zps269f00d8.jpg (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/100_3778_zps269f00d8.jpg.html)

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/100_3783_zps994944ca.jpg (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/100_3783_zps994944ca.jpg.html)

USBExpansion Card visible on the bottom (note no power is being supplied to the 5V plug):

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/100_3782_zps2d59be61.jpg (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/100_3782_zps2d59be61.jpg.html)

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/100_3785_zps65e6bdc2.jpg (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/100_3785_zps65e6bdc2.jpg.html)

One of the master cards on top, with one of the bottom master cards visible on the right:

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/100_3781_zps97827fde.jpg (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/100_3781_zps97827fde.jpg.html)

It looks so complex simply because there's so much. We take our stuff to alot of shows, and hence it's essential that it can be plugged/unplugged quickly. Hence the wires leading from the master cards actually lead to a series of 24-pin D plugs, which then plug into the overhead panel.

Not sure what good it'll do, but those are the photos anyway. At the moment I'm leaning towards a current demand issue as you suggest (I really hope that's the cause!), since the problem only really rears its head with a large, instantaneous demand of outputs.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
Has this always happened, it seems that you have been using this for a while. You are right, not to easy
to see anything. I think the easiest solution would be to make sure all m/c have a good 5v supply. If you don't have a spare pc p/s
then go to a place that sells old pc's and i'm sure they would sell you one for only a few dollars. It would quickly eliminate one possible
cause.
Les

[fordgt40]

Jack

Some more thoughts.

How are your annunciators configured - one or two leds and in series or parallel? The OC mastercard can only cope with circa 20/25 ma per output. It may be that although your power supply is ok, the card may not be able to cope. Have you checked the current drain on a single annunciator?

I had similar problems earlier this year. No matter what I tried, when one output was switched on then it triggered a multitude of inputs. It transpired that I had the wrong reference for the output, ie there was no led attached. This simple error triggered all the false inputs. Re-assigned the output and all was well again - worth checking that you are not trying to send an empty output high.

Hope this helps

David

Edit BTW in an earlier post when I suggested using the delay function to stop all outputs coming on together on the lights test - I was thinking in milliseconds only :)

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

Are you saying that when you commanded an "Empty" output ON that it caused all of the flickering? If so I'll look into that.

I'll measure the current per output tomorrow, amongst other things. Indeed, for most of the outputs, there are two LEDs wired in parallel per annunciator. So this could explain a larger current drain.

I see what you mean about the lights test, but naturally I'd rather find the root cause of the problem than have to program lots of little "tricks" in order to stop the flickering. One concern I have is that the flickering doesn't just occur when a lights test is activated. It also occurs when a large number of outputs happen to be simultaneously on (ie during start up or similar), hence it wouldn't solve the root of the problem.

But yes, I'll look into the current drain tomorrow.

@Les: I've been using this setup for around 4-5 years now, although the "top" two master cards have only been added within the last year or two. I started to notice the problem a little with three mastercards, and it is now much worse with four. But there was certainly no "instantaneous" point in the cockpit's history where it suddenly exposed itself, it's just gotten worse with adding more and more outputs over time.

Cheers,

Jack

[fordgt40]

Hi Jack

"Are you saying that when you commanded an "Empty" output ON that it caused all of the flickering? If so I'll look into that."

Yes, its strange but happened - may be other issues.

Good luck

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David/Les,

Did some basic testing today and can confirm that the current drain per output is certainly no greater than 13.5mA. In fact, on some of the tested outputs, it was less than 8mA. Certainly nowhere near 20/25mA.

Upon closer inspection in SIOC monitor, I have noticed a pattern. When "ALL ON" is commanded, the inputs on all cards seem to flicker momentarily. From then on, almost ALL flickering appears to come from master card number 2 (occasional flicker from another card but 95% is from MC 2).

I shall also add that none of the outputs appear to be visibly flashing or flickering and so one can assume that the pd across each output is remaining reasonably constant (this is also backed up by multimeter testing).

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Another update:

Out of interest, I tried turning every single annunciator ON one-by-one in SIOC monitor, including all 7-segment displays on the overhead unit. Interestingly, the flickering input issue did not rear its head in ANY way even with everything on. However, the second I commanded an "ALL ON" through SIOC monitor, it returned in its normal form.

And again, upon starting Lekseecon, as the panel synchronizes with the on-screen panel, the flickering returns as there is a sudden demand of annunciators.

So it most certainly seems to be a "surge" type issue. There is one thing I *do not* understand:

When commanding an "ALL ON", the flickering presents itself and continues for an indefinite amount of time; even if I leave it for 10-20 minutes or so, it continues flickering. However, when everything is turned on one-by-one, there is no flickering of inputs whatsoever, even if left for long periods of time. If this is a sudden "surge" problem, then why does the flickering continue for a very long period of time afterwards? Surely it should only flicker immediately after "ALL ON" is commanded?

On another note, I must correct what I wrote in a previous post. The master card in question is NOT one of the older types at the bottom of my "stack" arrangement; it is one of the much newer ones (bought in the last 2 years or so) on the top of the arrangement.

I will contact OC and see if they can suggest anything.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
What you have to consider is that when turning on all leds the surge is all it takes to PREMANENTLY change some digital conditions.
I have seen problems that generate errors that are only corrected by resetting a system. Also when driving these leds we are not just
simply putting a voltage on it. The outputs are multiplexed, that's Is each output is switched very quickly(can not be seen). So we are generating pulses and these could also be induced into wiring causing a problem like yours.
Could you please add up the total of LEDS you are driving. You said some of your annunciators have two. Also count each segment
of your 7 segment displays as one led. Let me know the total and also the CURRENT RATING of the 5v supply you have connected
to you master cards.
It may tell me if your P/S is underrated.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I shall respond to your questions regarding the power ratings & number of LEDs shortly... But I think I have made a major discovery here.

As I said previously, it was difficult to get to the bottom of the stack because of the way it was built. I have taken part of it off today and found something quite shocking!

After unplugging the master card in slot number 2, I noticed the inputs flicker a little (expected). But then, after brushing my finger against the port for slot number 2 on the USBExpansion card, I noticed they flickered again...

It turns out that merely TOUCHING the metal casing of the plug of slot number 2 on the USBExpansion card causes extremely severe input flickering. In fact, any slight vibration or disturbance near port number 2 causes severe flickering. Surely this is the cause. Now to figure out why? Clearly something is being inadvertently earthed.

I can confirm that none of the other USBExpansion ports suffer any such problems when handled; it is only the metal casing of slot number 3 that is responsive to touch.

Jack

EDIT: After swapping the master card that was connected in port 2 with the one in port 3, I can confirm that the issues have moved WITH the master card (ie now master card 3 is flickering), so it certainly seems to be a master card issue, despite all the stuff written about port number 2 above!!! What a mess!!!

[fordgt40]

Jack

The IDC connectors can sometimes cause poor connections. When you swopped mastercards did you swop the connecting cables as well? If so, try it again but leave the cables in place and just move the card. That should help determine if it is the cable or card that is prompting the problem.

Good luck

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

That's a good point, I think that'll be my next move. Unfortunately to do that will take a fair bit of work as the cables are bound to the structure of the "stack" (I never envisioned something like this happening!); so all that will have to be dismantled, but I think given the problems it was inevitable anyway.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
I am wondering if you are getting some form of cross talk between output and input. Wiring to Leds will have digital switched levels and this if in close proximity to inputs make cause a problem. If you were to separate boards as you are thinking of doing to trouble shoot then just doing this may give you a fix. Just my 2cents worth.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, I think given the level of problems we are going to dismantle the stack and separate the cards out one by one, clean them of any dust, etc, etc.

On another note, do you have any more specific information about how the input/output logic works on the master cards? Perhaps it would be useful to know what defines an "ON" condition, perhaps the interference from the outputs is momentarily causing the voltage to rise on an input such that the MC thinks it is "ON"?

Cheers,

Jack

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Alright, I have spent the day today dismantling everything and separating out the cards.

I have connected JUST the USBExpansion card to my PC, and in SIOC Monitor I can see huge flickering across all cards despite no master cards being attached whatsoever. Although I do appreciate that they (USBExpansion cards) aren't meant to be used by themselves.

After plugging all four master cards in (with NO inputs/outputs attached, nor any power supplies), all flickering stops... For the first time stability across all four master cards, even after commanding an "ALL ON" - though yet again bare in mind absolutely nothing is connected to the master cards.

Any ideas where I should go from this stage?

[iwik]

Jack,
I would connect up your Leds and 7 segment displays you may be using. Then do an ALL ON. Max noise will be generated
then.
Just to recap what was actually happening. You commanded a ALL ON in SIOC Monitor and the inputs start flickering, did
this then cause the the inputs to FSX to change also. So if you looked at your panel in FSX were the switches changing.
One thing I did notice with my setup in the early days was that if I didn't connect up 5v to the master card then
switch inputs would go crazy. At that time I was running 7 segment displays as well.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Thanks for your response. I will try and connect the LEDs and 7-segments one-by-one and see when the flickering starts.

In terms of do they flicker in FSX - Yes, they do. I am using Nico's Lekseecon program to interface to the LDS 767, and there is certainly a huge amount of flickering of switches all across the overhead panel so it's definitely an active problem.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Right, after doing some work today, I've gotten to the stage where I have gotten the flickering problem replicated with just two master cards connected. The important thing is that they are connected in such a way that I can now easily plug/unplug whatever I want.

I can again confirm that it is indeed master card number 2 that is causing the problems... I'll see if I can isolate the exact cable that is causing the problems. I'll also be getting a more powerful power supply soon to test that theory too.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Even after unplugging all outputs such that there are ONLY inputs connected, I still get the flickering with the 5V power supplies connected after an "ALL ON" has been commanded.

Tomorrow I'll drive out to my local "proper" electronics store and have a root around. Like you say Les, perhaps I should be looking for a PC PSU. Any particular rating recommendations?

[iwik]

Jack,
Does this flickering occur with just one card or does it only do it with two cards if. If only with min of two cards try
another combination of two cards just in case one m/c is faulty. It may need more than one card connected to cause
a problem. Just loading of two cards could bring about the problem. One standard PC P/S should handle two cards fine.
If you have not connected any LEDS/7 segment displays then flickering should not happen as there is virtually no
load on the p/s.
I would definitely try a PC p/s as many problems can be caused thru poor power supplys.
Let us know how you go.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I can confirm there was nothing whatsoever in terms of outputs (no LEDs nor 7-segment displays) connected to these 2 master cards, just inputs. I command "ALL ON" with no outputs connected and still get the problem. It is now happening on both master cards.

[iwik]

Jack,
You have four m/c, can u try the other two cards just to make sure either of the first two are not faulty. Also have no inputs connected but bridge a few inputs and test.
Les
P.S Try with M/C's plugged directly(no cables) into the USB expansion pcb.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I swapped the master card in question around and I can confirm the flickering does indeed still happen with another card substituted in its place (ie it appears to not be a problem with any of the mastercards themselves). I will try to plug them directly into the card at another point since it is quite difficult to achieve that at the moment given my layout.

On another note, I connected an oscilloscope to some of the flickering outputs today to try and ascertain what was going on. Whenever "ALL ON" is initiated there is definitely a very clear voltage spike across the inputs even if the switches are not moved. Furthermore, even when the "ALL ON" is left ON (ie steady), the voltage does not stay constant, but rather oscillates; there definitely seems to be a significant amount of noise across these inputs.

I have yet again tested the wiring on (some) of my inputs, and can confirm that there appears to be nothing wrong at the switch end; all inputs give a very clean "OFF/ON" operation without any such flickering.

My next move is certainly going to be a power supply change as I'm running out of options here. Could you provide me with a link to a suitable power supply? That would be much appreciated.

I am genuinely getting very worried that there is no solution here, the problem just seems so deep rooted and difficult to isolate. There is no single act that does or doesn't cause the flickering, it's so temperamental! The only certainly is the "ALL ON" command, that's definitely causing most of the problems.

Cheers,

Jack

[HansJansen]

Hi Les,

I swapped the master card in question around and I can confirm the flickering does indeed still happen with another card substituted in its place (ie it appears to not be a problem with any of the mastercards themselves). I will try to plug them directly into the card at another point since it is quite difficult to achieve that at the moment given my layout.

Jack

Hi Jack (and Les),

I apologise for barging in on your discussion here, but do you mean the same physical Master Card, or the card at the same port on the Expansion Card? This is to me beginning to reek of problems with that card...

If this occurs with any Master on the specific Expansion port, then you could try, as suggested above, to connect it without intermediate cable. Also, take a stern look at the Expansion card itself; you might have a bad soldering joint somewhere. Check if all IC's are seated firmly on their support, especially the PIC. Try another Expansion card if you can get access to one. If nothing helps, get the new PIC from OC; it at least solves a problem which looked a little like what you have here.

Just a few ideas which occurred to me; luckily I have never experienced something like this in my own setup (which may still occur in the future, as I am in the process of wiring up for my third and fourth Master Cards).

Hope you find the culprit!

Regards,

[yoss]

Well, don know if that helps in your case , i had single OC master card connected via parallel port and without running SIOC soft i had many flickerings
When Sioc was running, all worked as it should

Regards
Joseph

[iwik]

Hans/Joseph,
All comments I'm sure is appreciated by all. We are all here to help.
Jack,
Don't worry, the behavior you are experiencing is not normal so there is something wrong.
from your description you say it is difficult to just plug in the m/c to the Expansion board.
This suggests you still have it hooked up like your photo's.
If you are getting all these spikes on your inputs then it seems noise is your problem.
If I was you I would remove the Expansion card and M/C completely and test on the bench
on their own. If I remember from early o/c docs that 5v wa sonly needed if you were
driving displays from the m/c.
Any PC p/s from your Computer shop that wrecks pc should be adequate. At least for testing
as the price should be peanuts.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I spent the day yesterday dismantling everything and so although the actual wiring to the switches remains the same, I have "freed" the master cards such that they can be moved around. I have spent today cleaning all the little tiny bits of dust off them today and so they are now perfectly clean. So don't worry, they are not connected as before, I am now in a position where I can connect/disconnect whatever I want. The reason it was difficult to directly plug into the USBExpansion has now been solved.

I have connected them directly and can confirm that it hasn't made much of a difference, still getting flickering inputs on and off. I have indeed isolated and am testing them one-by-one to see where the problem lies, but like I say the issue is so random and temperamental it is very hard to pinpoint an exact source of the flickering.

@Hans: Thanks very much for your response Hans. I removed the master card in question and replaced it with another (working) master card, and still have very similar problems. Your point about the USBExpansion leads me onto my next point...

As I wrote a few pages previous, I am very concerned about the fact that when JUST the USBExpansion card is plugged in (with no master cards attached) there is significant (huge!!!) amounts of flickering across all of the slots visible in SIOC monitor. Just touching the metal casing of each USBExpansion card slot with my finger causes the flickering to get progressively worse/better... Is this normal? Les/Hans, can you tell me what happens when you JUST plug your USBExpansion card in with nothing else attached?

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
I have done some tests on my two o/c setups. One does not have any displays, the other has about 8 7 segment
and some leds. here is the results. Were not able to test with the SIOC monitor but used Contraldor.exe which was
the old test program. This is available in the Sioc folder.

The Unit that did not have any displays caused NO INPUT FLICKERING when the ALL ON was left running. This setup
has no external 5v Connected.

Unit two which has displays and is my main setup was tested as above without 5v external supply and when ALL ON
was commanded MANY INPUTS FLICKERED.
Connecting external 5v(from a PC P/S) the INPUT FLICKERING STOPPED COMPLETELY.

So as I suggested earlier your best bet now is to get that P/S.
Hope this helps and let us know what happens.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Thanks very much for experimentation, I am somewhat relieved with your findings as it suggests it is indeed a PSU problem and not a faulty master/USBExpansion card. What you have described does indeed sound very similar to what I am experiencing; out of interest, did you have any inputs connected to the flickering card? Or nothing connected to the input slots on the MC?

So yes, my next move is certainly going to be to get a new PSU. I have eyed this one up on Ebay, looks quite cheap?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/450w-Power-Supply-Unit-Silent-Quiet-ATX-PC-Computer-PSU-450-Watt-/360586807194?pt=UK_Computing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item53f4a6079a

May I ask how a 5V output is obtained from these? I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with PC power supplies, I assume they will have to be modded/hacked in some way in order to get a 5V output? I also assume that you can source all of the 5V supplies for each master card from the same PSU (due to the larger load capability). Let me know what you think.

[iwik]

Hi Jack,
One setup without display was tested with inputs as it was in a case and not easy to fiddle with.
The other one was tried with exp,m/c ,display and inputs all connected. Also with exp card only and
still did it. It appears its the display that requires the grunt as was stated by o/c.
With a PC P/S just use the red leads as these are 5v. You will have to connect the Green wire to a
Black wire of the plug that comes from the P/S. This will turn on the P/S. Just use a switch here.
Of course you must turn the master switch on. I would drive each m/c with 5v directly. You could
daisy chain but cable will have to be big enough.
The link to P/S seems it will be ok.
Just as a side point what was the rating of the p/s you were using to power the m/c.
Give me the Current rating.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Each of the 5V power supplies I used for the master card were slightly different in terms of their ratings:

* 5V, 2.25A
* 5V, 2.25A
* 5V, 4.00A
* 5V, 1.00A

I'll get that PSU ordered ASAP.

One thing I am worried about is that the flickering does NOT occur unless there is actually an input IDC connected to the master card block. Without this, even with ALL ON commanded, no flickering. Could this too be explained by the lack of a suitable PSU?

On another note, do you know what the voltage levels are for an OFF/ON command in SIOC? I'd like to do some more work with my oscilloscope.

EDIT: PSU has been ordered! Should be here within a week. Anything else I could be doing in the meantime?

Thanks very much for your help Les (& David/Hans!!!)

[iwik]

Jack,
The trouble i have at the moment is knowing what your setup looks like. For example, how many 7 segment displays,
how many leds.
Yes it puzzles me re idc on input.
Lets summarize what we should be doing.
1. P/S needs to be large enough to supply enough Current. Amount of current will depend upon quantity of
7 Segment displays and LEDs and Relays you are driving from M/C and Display Card outputs.
2. Wiring needs to be kept separate, outputs and inputs, especially when 7 Segment dispalys are used.
3. You need to test your system starting with USB Exp-1 M/C,1 display and cable connected to inputs on the one
M/C. This cable should not be the one that is connected to all your switches. This is just in case your input
wiring may be somehow connected to something else it shouldn't be.

You say removing the input cable stops the flickering. This indicates to me that maybe you have some
cross coupling or a connection that should not be there. The best way to check this is to do what I suggested
in 3 above.

So here is what I want you to do:
Have just the 1 M/C,USB EXP card and 1 Display card connected with the 4amp p/s.
Hook up an idc cable to the inputs that you currently have problems with.
This setup should ideally be on the bench. What worries me is the piles of wire
you have criss crossing your modules which could be introducing noise. As you said removing
the input cables the flickering stops.
What we are trying to do is keep everything clear of your existing setup.
This will check your modules are all ok.
Les

P.S I have had funny things with inputs when I have forgotten to switch on my 5v supply
to my m/c so the P/S is very important.

I have sent u a PM.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Test carried out as per your instructions.

I can indeed confirm that with an open-ended IDC cable connected (one end into master and other not connected to anything), there is no flickering of inputs, no matter how many times ON/OFF is commanded. Moving the IDC cable close to the 7-segment displays units or outputs doesn't make any difference on SIOC monitor. 4A power supply is connected.

This might indeed be a wiring problem after all.

[iwik]

Jack,
That's great, now take one of the input terminating boards and plug in the cable , hopefully your problem will return.
Suggest lifting this terminating board and moving physically or disconnect each wire one by one to see if it's any particular one that's causing your problem.
Please keep us posted on progress. You will beat it Jack.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Yes indeed, after plugging the IDC connected to the input board back in, the problems have returned. My concern here is that I will have to unplug every single input and rewire the whole thing, it has taken years to get to this exact stage and I'm just not sure I'd even have the time to put it all back together again!

I will await the arrival of the power supply; perhaps that can give a smoother output which will reduce the magnitude of said interference... If not, I guess we will have to start rewiring it, I suppose it will have to be done in the end anyway if it's the only solution.

Thanks very, very much for your assistance Les, I will certainly keep you posted. I'll do some more generic messing about tomorrow and report what I find.

On another note, I did some google searching and found this thread, you may wish to take a look:

http://www.opencockpits.com/index.php/en/foro/hardware-electronics-etc/5586-help-for-many-problem-with-master-card-and-sioc



Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
If you have been at this for years when did the Lights test give u grief. Were the displays the last to be added.
It may not be as big a job as you think, see which termination board of inputs give the most interference and this might lead you somewhere closer to where the problem lies. Good Luck
You are not alone here I have times when I finally add something and it breaks something else. That's the name of
the game with DIY. If the P/S doesn't fix it then check if all termination boards do a
similar thing when plugged in one at a time. If so try to look for something that may be common to all inputs boards.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I have spent about 4 hours working on the cockpit today doing random testing. PSU hasn't arrived yet, but I have made some *very* interesting developments.

* The flickering inputs are always connected to the input block J3 on the master cards. Even if I swap all of the IDC cables around, the flickering will always occur on J3. The nature of the inputs connected to J3 does not matter However, when nothing is connected to J3, no flickering occurs.

* No matter how many times ALL ON/OFF is commanded, there is no flickering whatsoever associated with the inputs connected to J4. If I connect an IDC block that was previously flickering when connected to J3, upon being connected to J4, the flickering instantly stops. Furthermore, this happens no matter which master card I use; the problem occurs on J3 on all four master cards.

* Sometimes when I flick a switch, two inputs are activated at once. The "secondary" input that is activated upon a switch flick is always an input on the bottom row of SIOC monitor.

Is there anything special about the construction of J3 that makes it more susceptible to interference?

Jack

[fordgt40]

Jack

I have have a spare expansion board I can lend you to swop over and see if that solves the problem

David

[iwik]

Jack,
What happens if you unplug your displays, not the display card. Does J3 inputs still play up. Cant explain why J3
will only give you problems. Maybe O/C can tell you this. Email sales for a possible answer.
When you connect to j3 what's on the end of the cable is it still your panel switches.. You told me earlier that a idc cable connected here with nothing connected to the end of it gave you no flickering. Their maybe something about there
layout and you feeding it with your layout of wiring produces what you get.
Why don't you take the unconnected idc lead plugged into j3 that gives no flickering and command a ALL ON the
place this cable in the approx. pyhsical locality of the input cable from you switches and then see if they flicker.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

That's correct, an IDC cable with nothing connected to the other end produces no flickering either way. BUT, with the input IDC cable connected to my switches, flickering only occurs with J3, not if I connect that same cable to J4. This I cannot understand since there is nothing special like J3; per your advice yesterday the master is no separate from the lot so there is nothing in the locality of J3 that could cause any problems whatsoever.

I have tried plugging an open-ended IDC cable into J3 and waving it near the input/output wiring; nothing whatsoever happens on SIOC monitor. Furthermore, unplugging the displays but leaving the displays card in makes no difference, still the exact same flickering pattern.

Having done even more fiddling about with wires and swapping things around, I must again confirm that it is only ever the inputs associated with J3 on each master card that has the flickering problem.

I am liaising with Alejandro from Opencockpits' support on the matter, he has asked me to photograph all four of my master cards (both sides) and send them to him; I shall do that now and I will also post the photos on here should you wish to see.

@David: If you could, that'd be fantastic, very kind of you to offer! If the same problems occur with your board then we can at least rule out the USBExpansion at fault.

Cheers,

Jack

EDIT: We'll have to wait for the photos... As if my luck could get any worse at this moment!!! My digital camera has given up the ghost (will not even turn on after charge).

[iwik]

Jack,
Well at least if anyone knows about J3 then o/c should.
I'm curious, the cable that you have been plugging into j3
on all 4 of your m/c to get the flickering, is that the same one for
all of your testing. If it is then try another termination pcb/cable combo
into each of J3 on all m/c.
Good to try another USB EXP as hopefully that rules out cards.
Les

[fordgt40]

Jack

When you need the card, just PM me with your address

Regards

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hello lads,

@Les: Each IDC cable that leads to each set of inputs is different, so I have been plugging a different IDC cable into J3 on each card every time.

@David: I have sent you a PM, thank you very much!

Jack

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

After reading through all of my cockpit scripts today, I have made another interesting discovery.

All of the inputs that were flickering in FSX were inputs with switch numbers that lie in the J3 range for each master card; in other words, all J3 inputs. None of the flickering inputs were found on the J4 banks.

I am going to take a look at the circuit diagrams for the master card and visually inspect the circuit tracks near and around J3 on all my cards, see if there's something special about J3 that makes it liable to the flickering whilst J4 is ok.

I certainly feel we've made a breakthrough though; the discovery that the flickering is localised to J3 only must mean something!

[iwik]

Jack,
I agree that localizing it to J3 is strange. I find it hard to believe that all 4 cards bought at different times
could have a fault around J3 input. The only way this could happen was if originally the cable that was plugged into
J3 was faulty somehow and partially destroyed that chip and so subsequently plugging into the remaining cards
destroyed these one as well. But it definitely wont hurt to have a good look at the boards for poor joints.
Did you make these yourself or brought built up one's?.
One thing you could look at is to put your scope on the +5v supply pin 20 of U10, this is the supply, how noisy is it with ALL ON commanded?.
Les
P.S A long shot but you could try replacing U10, don't take one from another m/c.
Chips like U10 that are exposed directly to the outside can quite easily be partially
destroyed.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

The problems must have been occurring on J3 even before I started swapping all the cables around for testing; it is only now, having gone back through all my scripts that I realise that all of the problem inputs are on J3. So I honestly think it's not a cable related issue, especially since J3 is not outright broken; the inputs still work when a switch is flicked on/off, they just flicker (alot!).

All of my masters/USBExpansions are pre-bought from Opencockpits.

I'll get back to you regarding pin 20 of U10.

On another note Les/David, could you please tell me what happens if, once ALL ON has been commanded and all LEDs are lit, what happens if you click ALL ON again. Any flickering on your part? Similarly, what happens with all LEDs/Outputs OFF and you click ALL OFF?

Cheers,

Jack

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I have done some work on U10 today. The oscilloscope was connected to the 5V supply pins of U10. I did not connect anything to the master card apart from the USB expansion card (which was connected to my PC) and a 5V supply; in other words, the setup was as basic/bare as possible. I'll also mention in this case that the 5V supply was from a very high quality precision bench source, not any old 5V supply, very smooth and stable.

The timebase in all of the following shots is 5 seconds per square, with 1 square representing 1 volt. Before testing, I connected the 5V supply to the oscilloscope to test the smoothness of the supply, this was the trace:

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0002_zpsd04df659.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0002_zpsd04df659.png.html)

After connecting the 5V supply to the card, and then connecting the oscilloscope to U10 with the setup plugged in via USB, the trace shows some interference (note ALL ON not yet activated):

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0000_zpscea5e357.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0000_zpscea5e357.png.html)

There are regions of no interference, and then regions of interference, the gaps between which are irregular.

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0003_zps2838c049.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0003_zps2838c049.png.html)

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0001_zps3116c811.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0001_zps3116c811.png.html)

I then swapped master cards, and repeated under the exact same conditions. Again, initially no interference, and then interference. The sudden rise in voltage is when I turned the 5V supply on:

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0007_zpse90b2c36.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0007_zpse90b2c36.png.html)

The interference randomly gets more severe:

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0006_zps4c7f1770.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0006_zps4c7f1770.png.html)

And then very severe:

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/Stratuspheric/DS0004_zps02152e16.png (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/Stratuspheric/media/DS0004_zps02152e16.png.html)

I believe that the type of interference shown in the last shot could be perhaps what is causing the flickering. The fact that the voltage drops from 5V to 0V could obviously be interpreted as a switch press by SIOC. Note that I have not even commanded "ALL ON" in any of these shots.

What confuses me is why this is happening. Both cards that were used are quite clean and have no visible damage upon them. If this sort of interference is happening with nothing attached to the master card, one can only imagine what happens when all of the displays etc are connected.

Let me know what you think.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
To get the last pic is the setup as follows:
Usb Exp/ 1 MasterCard/5v supply only and after say 2minutes?.
When does this voltage drop to zero?.
Are you plugging the USB Exp card directly into the M/C and no cable?.
How about a pic of your setup for the above last scope pic.?
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Yes that's correct. There really is no "when" to when this occurs, it is completely random. I did not initiate an ALL ON or ALL OFF when the large spikes occurred, I literally just left the setup completely untouched. It will be absolutely fine and then will suddenly and randomly spike.

[iwik]

Maybe you should wait till David sends you the USB expansion bd. If these two board are sitting on the bench with no input then it should not randomly generate rubbish like this. If all M/C are like this then one has to eliminate the Exp
bd at this point. By continuing on you may cause yourself more grief.
I will try and get a chance to look at my setup with a scope and no input and see what happens.
Les
I have had some more thoughts, focusing on USB EXP bd. Try swapping ic1 with ic2 and ic8 and ic9. They seem to drive MasterCard 1.
I checked my Combo with inputs disconnected I had about 500mv on noise on U10 pin
20 and when inputs connected and ALL ON about 1v.
What I saw was what I considered normal.
With M/C disconnected I had some random pulses but these were only a volt.
Let us know how you get on.

[fordgt40]

Hi Jack/Les

The expansion board was posted Saturday am, first class signed for delivery. Lets hope that this determines the root of the problem :p

David

[iwik]

Hi David,
Jack has a curly one eh. Cant believe he has 4 faulty M/C's.
Nice to see you around and ever so helpful as usual.
Have a nice one
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

Thank you very (!) much, I shall inform you of the reception of the card and let you know the results.

If you are willing to of course, would it be worth me sending one or two of my master cards back with your USBExpansion card for you to test with your setup? That would also eliminate a MC card problem if they work fine with your setup (I would include return stamps of course).

I am still convinced there is something amiss with my wiring although I am not sure what, and this still does not explain why only with J3 does the problem occur.

[iwik]

Jack,
At least you can rule out the usb exp bd. I did have a case once with another I/f kit Fsbus that did something similar,
never did get down to the bottom of it.
I still have a sneaking feeling that cabling is the problem. But you don't want to go down that path till everything
has been exhausted. Have you sent your pics to O/C yet?.
Les
P.S J3 is a mystery but I have seen many like this in electronics and even Engineers
that have designed it could not provide an answer.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Unfortunately I am unable to take any photos at the moment due to the lack of (any!) working cameras in the house.

If David's USBExpansion doesn't yield any new findings, and the new PSU doesn't work, we will be redesigning out master card "stack" such that there is no crossing of wires, etc. However, I don't know how we can solve the problem of wiring at the end of the overhead panel, because it is what it is!

[iwik]

Don't loose faith Jack, the thought of redoing things is usually worse than it really ends up.
If you have to then there are many guys who have build o/h using O/C that im sure you could
get some inspiration from.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Just one thought, if you have used shielded cable, by chance you have not connected it to
what o/c call GND. Its not really what GND for usually stands for. Ie its not a ground for shielding purposes but a common for switches.
Lets just wait and see if David's board helps.
Les

[fordgt40]

Hi Jack

I do not believe that all your mastercards are faulty. It is difficult to keep track of the actions you have taken, but have you moved the J3 connector and its associated switch wiring to a J2 connector to see if the problem followed you?

Sorry, but I do not want to dismantle my arrangement to test your mastercards as I think there is no real need and it will be a fair bit of work and risk for me - once you start "tinkering" all **** can break loose :D

My money is on either a faulty expansion board or the wiring to J3.

The easiest way to test the wiring to J3 is to release all the ground leads to the "breakout board", test for flickering. If none, then reconnect each single ground wire in turn, testing each time for flickering. If/when the flickering returns, then carefully check the wiring in that bank. Also make sure that any defined outputs are actually connected to a led, if not then delete the variable referencing that location

Regards

David

[fordgt40]

Jack

Les`s post about "gnd" has raised another issue. I assume that on your wiring you have not mixed up chassis gnd with "signal gnd" The "gnd referred to in the "input banks" and the gnd for the "outputs" should always be wired separately and are not power "gnd". OC cards may suggest that they are common but you should not wire them together yourself.

David

[dvincent]

Hi,
i had a simular problem or at least the symptons are simular. When testing my OC USB exp board with 1 MC attached I saw all flickering things in sioc monitor.I could not find a cause so I putted the whole bunch in a drawer. Some months later I retried and it was working. The reason why all started flickering in sioc was that I had tried three connectors on the USB exp board except... MC connector nr.1 So the resume: check the MC which is connected with the first MC connector on the USB exp board. If you connect a MC to MC connector 2,3 or 4 without a MC attached to that first MC connector it flickers al over.

[fordgt40]

The expansion card has four mastercards attached already

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Thanks for your advice dvincent, unfortunately as David has pointed out there are already 4 master cards attached.

On another note, I received David's USBExpansion card today and have done some testing with it.

For one reason or another, things are actually slightly worse with this new USBExpansion board. Having plugged all four master cards into the USBExpansion card, it was recognised by SIOC. After starting SIOC monitor I Quickly noticed that a large number of inputs were completely unresponsive (they were "frozen" in their states)... This happens sometimes, so I restarted SIOC, but they remain frozen; a large number (say 50-60%) of the inputs are unresponsive with David's card.

Upon plugging the MCs back into my original USBExpansion, the "frozen" inputs become fully operational again.

Furthermore, with David's USBExpansion card, there are a small number of outputs that remain permanently turned on despite repeated "ALL OFF" commands in SIOC. Again, when I reconnected my original card, these problems go away.

Obviously I can visually inspect David's USBExpansion card from this end and can confirm there is nothing amiss with it... So I have no idea what is causing these "new" problems!!! This is even stranger considering that our USBExpansion boards appear to be the exact same version (v1.1). I must note however that David's USBExpansion PCB appears a different colour to mine, perhaps they are from different batches?

Furthermore, the flickering is still present to the exact same extent, nothing better or worse in this department.

I shall continue on with the testing, but not holding much hope! Hopefully the PSU will arrive tomorrow or Wednesday.

David, is there any particular date by which you wish to have your USBExpansion returned? If it's ok, I'd like to keep on testing in throughout today and tomorrow to try and isolate some of the problems.

Jack

[fordgt40]

Jack

I did not intend to make things worse :(
The card worked happily with three mastercards attached, though it has the original mk1 rom, so some inputs at startup will not be recognised in their correct state until another input in the same bank changes state - a known bug now corrected with the new rom.

You can keep the card for a few days, I just ask that when you return it you use first class signed for, so that it is insured.

Seems to me that there are only two possibilities now, power or wiring. Have you done a meter check on your power supply at each card when running to see what the voltage is? Also a check at the power supply end to see what current is being drawn on full load?

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

I did not know about the "original rom" problem so that may explain that, I will check that later. But yes, the flickering is still occuring.

I did a current check a few pages back in this thread, each output was drawing no more than about 17mA with some drawing as low as 7mA. Are you referring to a current check of the actual 5V input pins themselves? If so, I can do that.

The plan is that if I can't get it working with your MC, and the new PSU doesn't yield any better results, we will be getting the whole setup in the garage (ie a large space) and spatially re-orientating everything such that it is more spread out and has less "criss-crossing". I must stress though that the wiring on the overhead itself is very neat and well managed and so I am very reluctant to change that!

Jack

[fordgt40]

Jack

We know the individual led drain but not the total. Please measure the current at the power supply feed end with all on and all off. Also please check the actual voltage at the mastercards when running both with all on and all off. If the power wiring is long and/or of a small gauge then this can drop the voltage and cause your problems

David

[dvincent]

The expansion card has four mastercards attached already

disconnect them all and attache each of them separately to the first connector of the USB exp card to find out if there is something wrong with one of the MC's. If they all are showing the same behavior then you can almost be sure that the problem lies with the USB exp card.(or that cable)

[iwik]

Jack,
Just confirm what I say as I think many of the same questions have been asked.
You have done the following;
1. Connected up USB EXP(J1) to 1 M/C and 1 Display Card.
2. Connected a 5v 4amp supply to only the M/C.
3. Connected an input idc cable with NO SWITCHES to J3 on M/C
4. Set to ALL ON.

Results:
No Flickering at all.

Removed input cable and used one from your Panel.
Results:
Bad Flickering

Good luck with the p/s. If no luck here then I would take one of your cables and a min system and remove your input
connections one by one to see what the result are on the flickering, reducing partially or dramatically.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I have just repeated your experiment, this time with slightly different results. The first time I did the "no switches connected IDC test" I did not do it for long enough.

This time, with only one MC connected (in J1 of USBExpansion), with a displays card connected to the MC (with 5V power supply), I connected an open-ended IDC cable to the J3 port. After commanding "ALL ON" no flickering. After "ALL OFF" no flickering. However, after repeatedly commanding "ALL ON" the flickering DOES indeed rear its head (in a very similar manner to when the inputs are normally connected, the same inputs are flashing).

@David: I have measured the current at the 5V pins of all four of my master cards. At full load (ALL ON) the lowest was 130mA and the highest was 170mA.

Jack

[fordgt40]

Jack

Thanks but it was the voltage that I wanted at the mastercard end :( This was to check that there was no significant voltage drop across your supply cable. If there was, then that may need sorting else your new power supply would not necessarily help.

To illustrate what I mean, I had a problem with a MCP being very unreliable. I did a voltage check at the MCP end and found to my great surprise it was less then 4 volts, whereas at my power supply source it was 5 volts. The problem was an in-line fuse of 3 amp I had inserted for safety reasons - this was causing the voltage drop. I uprated the power feed wires to the MCP and changed the fuse to 7 amp which then solved all the problems. However, based on your amperage figures I doubt that there would be much voltage drop, but always worth checking to remove one more possibility from the equation

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

I did indeed check the voltage figures aswell (but forgot to post them!!!).

The voltage with no load on each of the cards was around 5.10V, dropping to 4.90V under max load. I too have wired safety fuses in series with my power supply leads.

On another note, my 750W PC PSU has arrived and I am in the careful process of preparing it for use with the master cards.

I am however concerned about the new discovery that the flickering can occur with an open ended IDC cable (no switches).

[fordgt40]

Jack

Those voltage figures are fine :)
I do not want to cut across Les so lets see what he says about the latest flickering scenario

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Just to confirm, I have tried plugging another open ended IDC cable into J3 and there is indeed some flickering even with no switches connected! I did not notice it the first time around because it did not command "ALL ON" enough times. The plot thickens!

[iwik]

Hi David/Jack,
Now you have your P/S, hook that up be careful to get Polarity right.
If you still get your flickering then I think we need to see EXACTLY what your
test setup is. Beg, Borrow, steal a Camera.
All I know is that I can repeat your problems when I have a lousy or no P/S
connected to exactly the same setup as you. ie usb exp/ 1 m/c /1 display card.
Let us know what happens.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I am trying to work out how to get this PSU wired up. Unfortunately it has come with no documentation and half a ton of molex connectors. The fan does not start when turned on (although I suppose this is because it has to be plugged into a motherboard or something similar to get it spinning).

I see a few pages you back mentioned using the "red" wires, may I ask which ones? There are 3 red wires in total. Also, you mention touching the black and green together, is this by action of a momentary push button (like PC ON) or is a latching type required? On another note, there appears to be about 5 black wires and one green wire.

Sorry to be a pain, I have absolutely (!) no experience with these PC PSUs so am a bit lost even after reading some online documentation and guides.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

No problem Jack,
On the 20 pin molex connector there should be a green wire and a black wire beside each other. Link these two for
the power supply to be on always when Master power switch is on. Or put a latched switch so you can turn it of and on at will.
There will be cables coming out that have 4 pin Molex connectors with Red -Black-Black-Yellow.
You want one of the Blacks(-V) and the Red(+5v). The yellow is 12v, do not use.
You can test the p/s by turning on the Master switch then link the Black and Green and the fan should work.
Sometimes you may have to load the 5v line with a resistor if you have no load on the 5v line.
Test the 5v line with your multimeter.
Good Luck
Les
P.S I have been doing some more testing on my main unit and here I can see the
Monitor .The only time I can see some inputs flicker(very quick) is when I turn off
All ON. It doesn't happen all the time. But at no times does any input actually Turn Green
in the Upper 0-72 input box.
Does your one momentarily turn green or is it flickering green all the time ALL ON sent.
Can you go into your sioc directory and run Contralador .exe and hit Start button and check your switches work and then command an ALL ON. Do you get any switch numbers appear. I do not, but I still get Sioc Monitor to show this quick flick as said earlier.
Then repeat it with your dummy cable connected to J3

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Still no luck with this PSU. After connecting the black and green together, the fan fires up for a split second and then it goes dead. Simultaneously there is 5V across the output and then it goes dead.

It does this every time I try to turn it on, so not sure what has happened here.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
Connect a low value resistor between 5v and gnd. It probably needs a small load. The green and black have to be
permanently connected.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

That's exactly how I have them connected. 30 Ohm resistor between 5V and GND and green & black are permanently wired. The whole thing boots for a second and then dies. I can get it to repeat this by disconnecting and then reconnecting the green & black wires.

In fact, if I touch the green and black together and then apart really quickly (like On/Off/On/Off/On/Off) I can get the fan to spin and get 5V from the output. It just won't stay on.

[iwik]

My ATX p/s does not need any load.Try a 10ohm resistor , it may need a bit more current. Looked up the net and some have used a 10 ohm here.
If no joy just connect it up to your m/c(Check polarity) and see if its better.
Les

[iwik]

Jack,
How did you go with your p/s. Both of my ATX p/s here only require the Black and Green
joined and everything starts up. No need for a load on these, maybe you have a Bad P/s.
I suppose you could pinch 5v off your p/c P/s, is that a possibility?.

I have done some more testing and are able to reproduce I think what u r.
Wasn't able before as I was using my Laptop for testing.
I surmise that the problem lies not so much with the P/S Output but noise and layout.

During my testing which comprised my main PC with FSX and SIOC and connected to my
Panel. Panel I think necessary because this will be real situation. I found that leaving the 5v
physically disconnected and cockpit Panel P/S turned off then I got flickering inputs. However
if I now Switched on the Cockpit P/S and still left off the 5v plug to the M/C this flickering
stopped. Also leaving the Switch off on the Cockpit Panel p/s but plugging in the 5v plug to
the M/C fixed it also. This was with NO ALL ON set.
The effect I was getting would have randomly operated switches on your panel.

I also connected a separate 5V 2 amp supply to the M/C without switching it on but did not
help in any way.
So for my one connecting a PC P/S stopped all of the flickering. I even went into FSX and
had everything running, pulled up SIOC Monitor and did an ALL ON with no ill effects.

My conclusion is that a PC P/S is needed and wiring layout maybe a major part of your
problems. Grounding issues can cause problems like this bought about how negatives
of supplies are used and routed. Lets just hope you can get a PC p/s to run.
I am not sure I can do much more testing on my system as I have already had two near
disasters.
les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I found the problem; on my PSU, in addition to wiring the green & black together, there is also a brown wire that needs to be taken into account (unlike most of the other PSUs). I have sorted this now and the PSU is working fine, I am just wiring a simple digital voltmeter and ammeter in series with the PSU so that I can see at all times what the voltage across the MCs and & current through them is.

I'll report back when I'm ready to connect the PSU to the MCs.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

Hear from u soon. Just curious, the extra connection you had to make, where was it?.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

Sorry for my late reply, been busy preparing the PSU today.

Upon opening the PSU I found a brown wire, after further research it turns out that this is a 3V sense wire, that needed connecting to an orange wire of the PSU, otherwise the PSU shuts down immediately after startup.

[iwik]

Thanks Jack,
Just handy to know, never heard of this being needed, maybe of help to someone some time.
Les
P.S Looks like the more modern P/S use current sense on the 3.3v line.
Old ones didn't. Probably because higher current demands of current CPU's.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

@David: If you are reading this, I intend to test your USBExpansion card with my MC setup once the new PSU is ready. I shall then return the USBExpansion (signed for & insured) if this is ok!

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

I've about reached the end of my tether with this problem.

After trying out the new PSU, the problems persist. Exact same flickering. I even managed to get hold of a very, very good older model variable power supply, I set it to 5.15V (ie just a touch above 5V) and under max load it dropped to 5.13V, very stable (the 4 cards are drawing around 1.77A in total). Still the exact same input flickering. Opencockpits have asked me to send some photos of the master cards but I find it highly unlikely that the same physical fault could be present on all four master cards.

I am going to get the whole setup in my garage and rearrange all the cards such that everything is much less criss-crossed, but there is only so much I can do. If that doesn't work, I don't believe there is anything left to try.

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
Sorry to hear you still have problems. Can you get access to a P/s connection from your pc. Pickup 5v and gnd from
a spare drive connector and completely disconnect your new P/S.
I still think its a wiring or ground connection problem.
As I said earlier I can reproduce your problem if I mess about with my p/s requirements. But get no problem if
I use a completely isolated pc(my Laptop)
Les

[fordgt40]

Jack

Along the same lines of thought as Les, have you checked your grnd wiring as outlined in my post no 68?
BTW, you can keep the expansion card until you are sure you do not need it

Good luck

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Thanks for the support David & Les.

@Les: I am quite reluctant to go inside my PC case as I have mentioned before, I do not have much experience with these PSUs, and my PC is about the only thing left that's working!

@David: I can confirm that none of the output grounds are associated with nor connected to the input grounds in any way. For each bank of inputs and outputs, I have wired some "extra" grounds simply because I was running out of screw-in terminals to connect my new LEDs to. These extra grounds are still connected to the correct respective pins, but many of them are not currently connected to anything as they are intended for future use. Could this be a problem? Apart from the fact that they are not connected to anything at the moment, there is nothing else suspicious about these grounds.

[iwik]

Jack,
I thought early on you said that the USB Exp- 1 M/C- 1 Display out on the bench and a blank ide cable plugged into the
m/c still had the problem. Is this correct?. If so then what you need to do is run with this config till it is flicker free.
The only thing that comes to mind is that you are coupling together both the P/S ground of the PC and the Ext PC P/S also the 5v via the USB connection
The thoughts behind this is that in my case if I run my hardware from a laptop I cannot reproduce your problems.
That is why I suggested to tap off your supply to the cards from the PC P/S thus using a common Ground.
So please satisfy yourself that the problem is reproduced as a stand alone one.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

The problem is Les is that everything is so temperamental. Sometimes If I run with a blank IDC cable it won't flicker at all, then if I leave it for ages and repeatedly click "ALL ON" it flickers a little tiny bit. The same with the inputs. Sometimes they will flicker horrendously, then not at all, but will return again when "ALL ON" is re-commanded.

[iwik]

I understand Jack. Did some more checking on my setup. I can replicate your problems, int some times but I found that
a lot of inputs in Sioc Monitor would be lit green until I pulled out J3 connector and this was with NO ALL ON commanded.
My wiring isn't what you call best practice but to me indicates layout is the culprit.
You could try and slowly disconnect cable to input board that connects to J3. This may lead you to possible reasons for this flickering. I don't think there is anything wrong with your hardware but just an quirk in the design coupled with its hookup.
Other than that it means rewiring or changing to someone else's interface and software geared to the plane u use.
Very hard to offer much more from where I am.
Les

[Perik]

Hi All

I expect you've seen the new Mastercard from OC:
9269
What do you believe the beast in the upper right corner is – a +5V noise killer deluxe :-)
I'm sure this is not without a reason and could be the solution for Jack as
well – add a decent Electrolyte Cap and a few 0,2uF around the IC's.
As usual OC is very quiet about changes.

[iwik]

Perik,
Definitely worth a try, I did bypass the 5v line on my card with a 47u but it did not help. All chips should have their
5v lines decoupled with at least 0.1u and Jack would be best served by adding these to the bottom of the PCB wired
directly across the chips supply pins.
Regards
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Perik,

I have just noticed your post... Honestly cannot believe that is a coincidence! Obviously I do not wish to purchase a new master card, so it looks like I will be fitting the capacitor(s) myself. I am a bit unsure as to the EXACT pins and which capacitor ratings I should be using.

Les/Perik, do you have an accurate copy of an MC circuit diagram which shows where I should connect said capacitors (which exact pins)? My father has much more electrical experience in this particular area as opposed to myself so I will also be conferring with him regarding the fitting of these capacitors. Equally however, I don't want to plaster the MC with capacitors only to be left worse off from where we started.

Cheers,

Jack

[iwik]

Jack,
Our good friend Perik has nice diagram that he redrew when he made his own boards. Look at this link and on the
diagram you will see chips labeled U and u will see connections with pin numbers and VCC, VDD and Gnd marked for
each chip. What you ned to do is to solder a 0.1u 50v ceramic cap between VCC or VDD and GND on each chip. Most electronic diy stores will have these. Just make sure
when soldering that you don't short to the next pin. Check each of your connections with a multimeter before repowering.
Here is Periks diagram.
http://www.hoddo.net/images/ocboard/MasterCard-sch.pdf
Also put something like a 470 microfarad across the 5v connector of the master cards. Make sure you get the Polarity right.

Les

[Perik]

Jack,

You need to do some cleaning...

Boeing 747 Flyer has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

All done Perik! Send away ;)

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les/Perik/David,

Just to make sure you don't think this thread has died, I have all the necessary caps and should be soldering them in this weekend.

I sent an email to Alejandro regarding the release of the new mastercard to see if some of the new features could be retrofitted to my card to reduce the noise, but have heard nothing back.

Jack

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hello all,

Unfortunately the fitting of the capacitors has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, still the same flickering. We are starting the process of neatning everything up and getting all the wiring on the same frame, but I am really doubtful that will work. Still no response from OC.

[iwik]

Jack,
Sorry to hear that, still think what you are doing will be the best. Many people have used o/c cards to I/f O/H panels
without difficulty and seeing you have tried new cards it only leaves wiring.
As I suggested earlier can you try disconnecting your wiring to J3 one by one, it may show something.
Don't give up.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi Les,

I have received another response from Alejandro, he says that the new version of the mastercards are unlikely to fix the issue. He thinks that the problem is "an excess of charge connected to J3", I assume "charge" has been lost in translation somewhere, I think he must mean current. What I don't get is, J3 is an input connector, not an output connector (J1 or J2), so how can J3 be drawing excess current (he also mentioned "outputs connected to J3" in a previous message).

Still working on neatening everything out. If that doesn't work I think I'll just have to work around the problem, perhaps just not use J3 (although like I say, sometimes I can get it to happen on J4, nothing is consistent here).

One thing I will mention, the 25-core cable that connects the overhead panel itself to the master cards has both inputs and outputs within it (ie inputs and outputs are bound within the same 25-core cable), perhaps this could be a factor. Even so, if this is the case, why doesn't it happen with every single input?

[iwik]

Hi Jack,
Yes I don't think translation helps greatly.
I would definitely not mix inputs and outputs in the same cable. If the least you do is to separate these.
I have been in Electronics for near on 50 years and many a time what happens electronically defies all logic.
Even had Design engineers unable the help me fix a problem on equipment they have designed.
For all we know there maybe this inherent weakness in this design that your particular layout highlights.
As I can produce your effects on my setup with a little rearranging of my cabling and power supply.
It's a shame if you cant use J3. Even using another make of I/f card maybe a simple work around.
Les

[iwik]

Hi Jack,
Yes I don't think translation helps greatly.
I would definitely not mix inputs and outputs in the same cable. If the least you do is to separate these.
I have been in Electronics for near on 50 years and many a time what happens electronically defies all logic.
Even had Design engineers unable the help me fix a problem on equipment they have designed.
For all we know there maybe this inherent weakness in this design that your particular layout highlights.
As I can produce your effects on my setup with a little rearranging of my cabling and power supply.
It's a shame if you cant use J3. Even using another make of I/f card maybe a simple work around.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hello everyone,

Unfortunately I am still experiencing the problem and am still in the process of rebuilding my wiring stack.

I am liasing with Opencockpits' support and they have asked my to produce a video of SIOC monitor to see what is happening. I have done so, and so I thought I would share the video here too so that you can all have a look at what I'm referring to.

For simplicity, only ONE mastercard was connected to the USBExpansion card for this video (MC 1), so just ignore all of the IO readings for 2/3/4. The part of the cockpit connected is column 1 of my 767 overhead panel. You may have to look very carefully at the SIOC monitor display for MC 1 in order to see the "doubling" and flcikering of inputs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GwQh7cN_ts

Jack

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

A further update.

I have spent today unscrewing every single output from the screw-in terminals connected to the master card (MC 1). In other words, there were ONLY inputs connected to the master card. After commanding ALL ON, the problem still occurred.

I then proceeded to unscrew every single input connected to the screw in terminals connected to the master card. In other words, there was now nothing at all connected to the master card. After ALL ON was commanded, the problem did NOT occur.

So then, I proceeded to wire the inputs back in one-by-one. After wiring the first, no problem. Then the second, no problem, and so on, until I had wire the first batch of 9 inputs (ie one ground connected). Then, after intensively testing these switches, I eventually got the "two at once" problem to reoccur whereby two inputs are activated by a single switch press. However, there was absolutely no input flickering whatsoever when repeatedly commanding ALL ON.

I think this must surely conclude that the outputs, although perhaps making things worse, are not the root cause of the problem? Then again, the wiring of the inputs has been quadruple checked, there are absolutely no shorts/poor connections.

[iwik]

Jack,
Good to see you are still plugging away at it. Can you pay a visit to someone in the UK and have a look at how they have wired their one up. Still think its how the inputs are wired. Maybe you have'nt got any shorts but layout may still be a problem. You also say you had to test extensively to show the fault. Now it is possible that you may experience something like that in extreme cases but it would be rare and may not cause a problem. As you said earlier it only
became a problem when you did a ALL DISPLAY test. So be careful not to follow something that maybe a red herring.
This interface may not be perfect. With some things you try hard enough and you will find fault.
As I said earlier in one of my posts that I can get what you experience.
Maybe David would allow you to visit and see how he wired his one.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Just an update:

Opencockpits have agreed to send us the new PIC - I assume this swaps out with the old PIC in the black chip socket on the USBExpansion card?

Jack

[iwik]

Yes that's correct, just make sure you put the new one in the same way round the old one was. The chip has a little
notch or spot.
Les

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Alright, thanks very much Les.

[SteveL]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Hello Jack,
You might try adding a .1mfd ceramic capacitor across each of your switches to reduce switch bounce and noise. Also, a small resistor in series with each switch will limit the current draw. Experiment with values between 20 and 200 ohms. The largest useable resistance will provide the greatest current reduction, but if the resistor is too large the input will have trouble interpreting it, most certainly you don’t need zero ohms to recognize a switch input.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->EDIT The resistor advice is based on accepting the premiss that you need to reduce the current draw. If that's not the case, only do the capacitor.

[fordgt40]

Hello Jack

Back from hols, just managed a few look ins whilst away. You are certainly welcome to see my setup, though I can explain it here and post piccies if you still need it. The MIP is wired as:-

All power feed lines are run separately from othe cables
All input/output breakout boards are connected via ribbon cables
All input/outputs wires from the components to the breakout boards are loosely bundled together.
All cables/wires are kept to the minimum ie the OC boards are mounted on the back of the MIP frame

By all means try the new PIC for the expansion board. Unless OC are aware of other issues that are unknown generally, this will only cure the problem mentioned very early in the thread. That is sometimes was a mismatch between logical/physical state of switches when first powering up. This manifested itself by incorrectly showing the value of some switches at startup, however, when a switch in the affected bank changed state, then the software correctly read all switches in that bank and corrected the reported state.

This gave rise to duplicate switches going high/low, when the values were finally synchronised. This anomaly only happened once, thereafter the logical/physical switches remain in sync.

Regards

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

Thank you for your response. I assume the PIC chip will arrive within the next week.

I think one thing I could try is reducing cable length, that is something I have not looked into at all yet. I would be very appreciative if you could post some pictures of your setup.

Cheers,

Jack

[fordgt40]

Hi Jack

I cannot easily get a photo of the rear of the MIP wiring. However, I attach an earlier photo which show the principles, which have not changed. The photo does not show the ribbon cable connectors. Additionally, since the photo was taken an additional two mastercards have been stacked on top of the existing one, together with additional breakout boards also stacked on existing.
There is no specific separation for inputs/outputs when the wires run to the actual components, however power lines are routed separately

David

[Boeing 747 Flyer]

Hi David,

What you have posted there is actually very similar to the way I currently have mine wired up, hopefully I will get a picture to you tomorrow. The new PIC chip has arrived and I have installed it. No flickering so far, but I have only wired a very small portion of the cockpit up at the moment.

[iwik]

Jack,
if you now have it wired similar to Davids , that's a Very nice Reference that builders should strive for. Im sure you will have success if it all ends up like his.
Les

[fordgt40]

Jack

It does not appear that you have logged onto this forum for some time? If you get this thread update, could you please check your PMs

David

[fordgt40]

Hi Jack

Card received today. Tried to PM you, but your PM inbox is full :(

Regards

David