What software do you recommend?

[Norwegian737project]

Well.. As the thread name indicates, I would really like to hear peoples opinions on what software to go with to get as close as you can get to the real thing in a home-built simulator.

We are kind of confused about what to go with. ProSim 737? Project Magenta, Sim Avionics and so on..

We originally had our mind set on ProSim 737 untill yesterday when someone told us that the simulation is not as deep on ProSim 737 as in Project Magenta.
You see, one of the main goals of a simulator project is to get every little detail in the system logic to replicate the real thing, so I think we need to go with what is out there that has been thoroughly tested and is compatible with all the hardware that goes into a simulator like this. Another thing is that ProSim does not come with a WX radar, and EGPWS Terrain radar yet.

I don't want to have anybody bashing the different developers in this thread, I would just like to get opinions and tips on around this question of mine as mentioned earlier.

[dnoize]

tough one.....

and hard to compare.....

PM is out there for years with loads and loads of feedback from its users.
Prosim737 just started and is taking its first (very impressive)steps

True..PM has weather, but i've seen messages in the Prosim737 cdu scratchpad i have never seen before in any of the other avionics suites.
Prosim Overhead logics are very accurate (it started as overhead software).
Development with Prosim is very fast with large updates coming every month, where others seem to have come to an halt.
Also keep price in mind, prosim still free being still in beta, pm and SA in the 1000's range, flightdecksoftware inbetween.

So theres pros and cons with every suite.

Also there are many other suites not mentioned, that might be added to the list:

Aerowinx precision simulator (for the 747 drivers)
Flightdecksoftware
AST for the a320 drivers
Jeehells free Airbus software
etc


But would be nice if we could discuss all suites here WITHOUT bashing any vendor.

My humble opinion: all have their pro's and cons. No real preference here at the moment.

Stef

[Norwegian737project]

Hmm... I like your way of approaching this subject.

I know PM is expensive, but I thought this was like with other things, you get what you pay for?

I might be terribly wrong, and so that's why this question is out there for us to discuss.. :)

[Sean Nixon]

What I find difficult to determine is exactly what is functional in each suite, and what is not. What might be nice is a comparison chart of the systems accurately modelled. I realise most, if not all of the suites are in a state of continuous development, some moving quicker than others, particularly the newer ones.

I also find the time limited/area limited demos a little too restrictive for proper evaluation purposes too. Microsoft lets me use Office unrestricted for 30 days!

I bought the PM Boeing Glass Cockpit suite, based on my belief at the time that they were the 'industry leaders'. I have to admit at being a little disappointed with my admittedly brief experiences with PM (my sim hasn't been flyable for months). Now I've just received my overhead and will soon be deciding which overhead logic to go with.

A friend also uses PM and has PMSystems. I fly his sim regularly, but he's having difficulties getting his overhead fully functional. This is confusing and annoying not only for him, but also myself, as I can't make my mind up whether the problem lies with the software, the vendor, or the friend (it's ok, he knows who he is)!

I have also flown a Sim-A powered sim, and was very impressed by that software. I've also met the two developers, and they are very enthusiastic about the future of the software.

[Clive]

I have made allergations as to the level of support I have received from Project Magenta in the forum very recently however I must make it clear that I have absolutely no issues with the software they provide ... the issues I have had I am sure are from my own ignorance and nothing whatsoever to do with PM.
That said I have been impressed with PM Systems and its functionality so far .... I don't have a lot to compare it with but it seems to have just about everything covered. My comments regarding support I stand by and hope the guys at PM take note however I would still choose Project Magenta as my operating system in my sim.

Clive

[fordgt40]

I do not think that a "poll" will provide you with any meaningful answers, as the votes will largely be subjective. I suggest that you assess the software options at the following as a minima

What is your maximum budget

Is the software modular ie can I expand later for the functions I would like but cannot afford at present

What is the minimum functionality eg is weather radar and/or overhead logic a must

What support is there for your hardware of choice

How easy is it to interface your I/O and hardware

How complete is the manual and the quality of explanation

Read the respective forums and assess each software package against the level of grumbles, support and speed of support

This will tell you more:)

David

[Norwegian737project]

I appreciate your answer to this rather difficult question.

But let's say that money and budget is not an issue in this case. When you have allready invested all those thousands of dollars in the sim, the software needs to be up to par regardless of the price. That's my humble opinion atleast. But it seems to me so far that, the more money the software costs, it does not have to mean it's better than it's competitor? Is this true? If so, then money is not an issue at all in this case. The problem lies with with finding the developer that delivers the best possible product that is out there on the marked, and I am really having a struggle finding the correct answer to it :???:

[fordgt40]

But it seems to me so far that, the more money the software costs, it does not have to mean it's better than it's competitor? Is this true? If so, then money is not an issue at all in this case.

But if other factors are similar then money is an issue - hence its inclusion in the list :)

[dnoize]

i like Seans idea of a comparison chart.

Why not make a list with all functionality of the various suites. Whats implemented, what not, whats being worked on.
Missing features are a motivation for the developers to keep up with competition.
Possible listed bugs, or unrealistic behaviour a reason for an update, etc.

However there is one BIG but: Sometimes the software is blamed, while the error lies with the user, either not knowing how to integrate all modules or simply because they do not know the aircraft systems. What they allways thought was right in brand A, might be wrong in reality.

Still, i would like a comparison chart.


Stef

[metamarty]

As the developer of Prosim I can at least give some input about the state of the product here. For comparisons, you should consult Prosim users about what they like/don't like about the product.

What we have:
Main focus:


Ease of use
Stability
Extreme detail

Architecture:


Dot net 3.5 framework
One server program, clients connect over TCP
No WideFS required (in most setups)
All data is stored on the server, FMS data and audio is automatically retrieved by client applications
Embedded webserver allows any capable HTML browser to interact with CDU and instructor station
Reads scenery from BGL files and merges with procedures from Navigraph
All configuration done in menu's. No need to edit files or scripts.

Systems modeling:


All major systems are simulated using a flow model. What breaks will affect other systems.
Fluid dynamics model of cabin for pressurization system.
Model of pneumatic temperature on various points for cabin climate management.
Model of bleed air system with 5th and 9th stage valves that can break.
Model of individual valve movements (using either AC/DC or pneumatic power).
Model of fuel movement in the tanks, causing low pressure lights in banks/pitch.
Model of oil temperature and cooling.
Individual model of electrical relays and systems like TR's.
Model of fire detection systems with individual loops.
Drifting IRS model.
Model of fuel temperature based on environment/air flow.
Model of window heat based on environment/air flow.

Most of these elements can be broken in the instructor station

Hardware Support:


Working towards integrating all hardware suppliers.
Most hardware will work directly (instead of through FSUIPC which may cause slowdowns).
Direct support for cards like phidgets, opencockpits, joystick cards or FSUIPC offsets.
The complete list is on the website.

Instructor station:


Directly access as a web page served by the embedded webserver in the system. Can be called up in your phone or tablet PC.
Uses a "slot" system to preprogram position that you can call back directly from the instructor station or CDU.
Slots can be programmed by applying a translation to a runway point, making it easy to setup for example a "left downwind RWY36R EHAM" or a "10 NM final RWY 25 EHRD", without first going there and saving the position.
Over a 100 failures that can be triggered or applied directly.
Cockpit setup system to adjust GPWS calls or display items.
Route page for managing company routes.

Autoflight system:


Custom autopilot (not using anything from FS).
Arinc 424 LNAV.
VNAV with geographical path descent.
Pitch and/or bank channels can be in CMD or CWS state.
Working CWS mode.
True flight director that you can follow.
Precise modeling of modes (for example auto capture of MCP altitude when pitch channel is in CWS while A/P is in CMD).
Modeling of individual FCC's to drive one or both FD's depending on active mode.

FMS:


Most pages modeled:
INIT REF pages, RTE, DEP/ARR, DES, CRZ, CLB, FIX, LEGS, HOLD, PROG, N1 LIMIT, FIX
Holdings with direct, parallel and teardrop entries
VNAV with vertical bearing calculator
linear wind model for RTE DATA calculation
Unlimited amount of CDU's can be run per cockpit. CDU is available as a web page from the embedded webserver for operation on phones/tablets
Direct to with Course option and abeam points

Displays:


All regular 737-800 displays.
Carrier options can be selected on the fly on the instructor station, so no need to configure individual PC programs to change a layout.

Other systems:


GPWS
TCAS 2 version 7

Licensing:


Target cost of 300 euro per cockpit. (Main module free, other 3 modules are 100 euro per piece)
Lifetime updates for hobby users
No hardware locking


To do (hope to do most this year)


Software overhead panel
Terrain radar
Weather radar
Old EFIS layout

I'm sure I forgot some items, but this may give you an idea where we are right now. Feel free to compare.

[fordgt40]

I think Prosim gets a plus mark for initiative ;)

[Norwegian737project]

Marty, I really appreciate your more than complete answer.

I think I speak for the whole community when I say Thank you for all your hard work.
You surpriced me with your post, because I never expected a developer to jump on this thread:)

It's answers like this that make the decision a bit easier:-D



I think Prosim gets a plus mark for initiative ;)

Lol.. Damn right XD

[metamarty]

You're welcome!

I come here because I'm a builder too. I welcome any comparison charts. There may be many reasons one chooses one cockpit product over the other, so won't claim that everybody should be using my product. For comparisons you need data, so I hope other users will be able to fill in the details for other products.

[dnoize]

thanks Marty !


Stef

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

just want to add my bit on this..........
i was planning an update and my favourite to be used was SA. but sadly it suddenly got priced out (for me) of the
equation, so said update was shelved until i came accross Marty's Prosim.
i now have a working setup in the workshop using this software. works with my Engravity CDU, works with my
CPFlight kit, supports the Phidgets LED64 and i'm now just starting to hook up the switches.
all i need is Revolution Simproducts TQ support (which is in the pipeline) and i'm 'way to go' :o
really like the software and it's ease of use. best bit is it will be in my price range :o :o :o
have a great day gentlemen.........

rgds

ian

[Matt Olieman]

To all that read this thread and in fairness to all vendors: Please keep in mind, just because a vendor does not participate in this thread, it does not mean the product has NO value nor is NOT a favorite. The information provided in this thread is not complete or independently compared.

The poll is inconclusive and does not reflect the number of users visiting this site. Please keep in mind there are approximately 4000 unique visitors visiting this site daily. As of this writing, 19 users participated in the poll, this certainly does not reflect the number of owners of products and users visiting MyCockpit.

There are vendors/developers NOT participating, they have as many as thousand(s) of customers/users. Again this is not reflected in this thread.

PLEASE, when reading this thread keep the above in mind.

Matt Olieman

[fsaviator]

Cheers everyone...

my 2 cents...

Matt, I know you are just moderating, but no one is bashing anyone here, and no one is asking the developers input... their websites and forums say it all. We want a user look at this. I've been in this hobby a long time... I don't need a poll to tell me what I (and most others) already know.

I'm sticking with PROSIM exactly because Marty participates in threads like this. I understand the economics, and I understand some developer's need to focus outside THIS (home cockpit building) market (based on the person that started the thread). No dig on the other developers. They all started as home builders themselves. They have now expanded for various reasons, and their market has changed. Again, no dig on them... I wish them all the best.

Like Ian, I was headed the SA route until I was ready to purchase... I also got priced out very quickly.

With that said, our market remains. While all of us would love to have $40,000+ to buy everything, plus another $1,000 or so to sink into the software, we don't.

I don't agree with the logic of "I spent thousands on my setup, so what is a few thousand more?". It's a few thousand more dollars...! Why pay that for software when I have a package available that is much less, just as effective, and you know what... the developer is actively working the bugs out of his system with my input, and adding more and more everyday.

Bottom line, we are all HOME COCKPIT builders here (at least the ones that I see logged in everyday taking part in this discussion) and the comments from the other builders that have tried the packages are very relevant to this audience.

Let me stress again, I have no issues with any of the developers out there. Their products are awesome. PROSIM is all I can afford though.

Best from Baghdad!

[PHTAT]

The poll is: What software do you recommend?

Without being interferred with earlier posts i can only speak for myself.

I Tried Pm And Flightdeck software, implemented them in my home 737 pit and had lots off problems resolving isue,s that came with it, let alone the cost that these programs bring.

I started with Prosim software and believe it or not, it worked the first day i started.

and ehh, i am dutch... its free :)

I recommend Prosim.

[Sean Nixon]

I Tried Pm And Flightdeck software, implemented them in my home 737 pit...

Just curious, did you buy any of those packages, or just played with the demos?

Sean

[PHTAT]

Just curious, did you buy any of those packages, or just played with the demos?

Sean

Hi Sean,

Only the demo,s ...

I am nowhere near the hardcore sim builders i must say, but i enjoy the flying and building the pit up to my expectations and my thought was if the demo,s are already a **** in the *** ill keep looking for a demo that suits mine of a good program.

Wil.

[nax228]

I have the full suite from FlightDeckSoftware and have also logged some flights with PM and S-A, and they all have their issues.
Without picking on any vendor, I can say Prosim is the best and smartest choice I can make based on most factors regarding the software.

[hark40]

Prosim737 allows using IOCP dataref, that is a point I like it.

Terrain radar, Weather radar and EFIS layout for this year? Look forward!