surround view experiences

[choffmann]

Man, that´s crazy! I got my 3 Mitsubishi projectors today, and I am simply stunned! Although I have not constructed the curved screen yet, just put the whitebords in front of my pit and the projectors on the glareshield not aligned at all and using one forward window zoomed back to .3, I am overwhelmed with the result. You become really really immersed into the scenery, WOW!:D:D:D
Pics show KLAS scenery. I also made a short flight in sunrise from LOWI to LIPZ (=Venice). Just marvellous. I can only recommend these projectors to any cockpitbuilder. Will report the progress of the setup of my visuals.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/110128/ufwdhns9.jpg

approach to KLAS:
http://s1.directupload.net/images/110128/lkvae6x3.jpg

landing:
http://s1.directupload.net/images/110128/zymrb2rv.jpg

at gate:
http://s13.directupload.net/images/110128/k925l4j2.jpg

[Matt Olieman]

Fantastic Chris, l look forward toward more pics. :)

Matt Olieman

[Nick1150]

WOW that's great Chris :)

Looking forward for more pics !!!!

[BlackWidow]

WOW after seeing your setup I now know the direction i want to go. Thanks.

[JWS]

Is this me or are the pictures rather small, compared to what we usually see on the forum?

JWS

[BlackWidow]

no its not just you i get the same thing.

[fordgt40]

JWS

Glad you raised this - I thought it was only me who was seeing thumbnails!

David

[choffmann]

Sorry for the tiny pictures, they were originally linked to another picture server, but are not anymore, for reasons I don´t know. I tried to upload the pictures to Mycockpit, but it won´t work. Maybe Matt can help on this.

Thanks
Chris

[Matt Olieman]

I took care of it :) They ARE large images, but VERY nice. :)

Matt Olieman

[737NUT]

I have a question,
In my sim room, i have enough room for 3 projectors to be 13ft from their respective screens. What is the advantage for going short throw vs standard throw? Besides space, is there a quality difference? Its allot cheaper to get standard projectors that why i ask, plus i have the space. :)

[choffmann]

I´m not quite sure, but maybe short throw projectors have a larger horizontal throw angle than the usual projectors and you might need more projectors to cover lets say a 180 degree horizontal extension of your screen.
Another issue might be that you kinda loose lumens (brightness) with increasing throw distance, so that your projectors would need more lumens than a short throw one for the same image brightness. And higher lumens projectors are expensive...
Just my 2 cents.

Chris

[ivar hestnes]

The biggest benefit with short throw projectors, is that they make it possible to create a large FOV visual system in a room with limited height under the ceiling, which reduces the risk of the cockpit making shadows on your screen.

:)

[737NUT]

I have 9.5' ceilings so height is not an issue. One screen is 120" diagonal so times 3 = pretty big screen. :)

[Bernie]

Hi,

I am unable to see the pictures at all. All I see is a box saying that no hot linking is allowed.


Kind Regards

Bernie.

[JWS]

I took care of it :) They ARE large images, but VERY nice. :)

Matt Olieman

Matt,

Don't know what you did but now I lost the thumb nails as well. When I click on the small red crosses next tot the place where the images were, I get a series of white dots running around in circels, which is quite "psychidelic" you know and it makes me sleep but when I awake, they are still there man, groovy and outa sight you know. :cool:

JWS

[Matt Olieman]

I see it fine with Chrome and IE8. A bit slow loading because the pics are 2+ MB.

Let me know what browser you are using please?

Matt Olieman

[JWS]

IE8, and yes I can see them now (sloooowly).

Great pics.

JWS

[choffmann]

I did a short video with the screen still not assembled, but it might give you a clue of the feeling. It has a bad quality because my video cam is very old. I downloaded the ImmersiveLight Demo software from fly.elise-ng.net, that´s why the warping is overwritten by some text. This software seems very useable and user-friendly to me and could be a favourable alternative to Nthusim, especially cf. the cost. However, I have not decided yet on which software to use. I first have to try the Nthusim Demo.
Video shows t/o and appr at KLAS and then t/o at LOWI and landing in Munich EDDM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6vujmWuo


Chris

[rjvcarvalho]

Great video, what projectors are you using??

[choffmann]

Mitsubishi EW-230 U ST

[RalphW]

Hi Chris

I too have 3 of those projectors. Immersion is amazing isnt it!. The projectors came highly recommended and I was not disappointed. I went straight for Nthusim and find that software is really fit for purpose. Easy to use and configure. I don't have curved screens yet, using 3 flat screens at angles. Some vids here show it in action.
http://www.simfest.co.uk/index.asp?page=10vids

Regards
Ralph

[Sean Nixon]

As I suspected, when using any kind of shell, you need ultra-short throw projectors, like the Mitsubishi's. My Acer short throw projectors are not short enough to suit my new shell :mad:

They have a 0.9:1 throw ratio compared to 0.5:1 of the Mitsubishi's.

If anyone is interested in 1 (or 3) Acer 1230X's with around 20 hours use, I may be upgrading soon!

Sean

[castle]

OK. Here's my project using a curved cylindrical screen and BENQ-525ST projectors. The shell is off ATM to handle mounting the projectors on the ceiling. A little cramped for height, but still a pretty decent vertical FOV and look down. The screen is 6.5' radius and vertical height of 5.5". Also a shot of an example distortion mesh (in green) and some extreme close-ups of the projector overlap regions.

Note the edge adjustment at the tail section of the 777 in the before and after shots. The software is open source and available for free and will run on MS windows, Mac, or Linux. Working on a few algorithms for edge blending. It is turned off in these pics, thus the bright vertical streak were the projectors meet.

There is no limit to the number of projectors or screen size. This will work with a dome as well, Just a question of how many you can afford, available space, and your electric bill :-)

JW

[Kennair]

Hi JW, that's pretty stunning considering its free. Are you using a single view or 2 undocked? Where can I get the software to test myself?

Cheers,

Ken.

[Nick1150]

I am currently using one Hitatchi ultimate short throw projector (cpaw250nm), giving me a high quality relult as far as the external visuals is concerned, and total 180 cms wide screen from only 30 cms distance !!! I know, after some calculations, that I can achieve more than 230 degrees of external visuals if I use 3 of them, BUT the problem with the ultra and ultimate short throw projectors is that at least for the time being this kind of "new" technology is too expensive (Hitatchi cpaw250nm costs 1200 euro each !! ) for getting 3 in one buy.....

Never the less this is the way to go now and in the future, unless there is enough room for simple short throw.

[castle]

Hi JW, that's pretty stunning considering its free. Are you using a single view or 2 undocked? Where can I get the software to test myself?

Cheers,

Ken.

The scenery is generated with OpenSceneGraph. You create a single world view and then break it into pieces with an xml file directing each scene to a monitor/projector. I'm not a MS windows guy so not sure exactly what undocked means.

actually there are three projectors, the third is still in the box and needs to be mounted. Considering a fourth and maybe a fifth....

As to the hardware and software:

Single PC with three Nvidia cards. The software is OpenSceneGraph that generates the world scene, then with an xml file you create an number of virtual cameras and their position and orientation and "connect" them to each of your graphics cards. You can also use multiple neworked PCs.

OpenSceneGraph has the basic image distortion software and I've been working to extend it as part of the FlightGear project. I'm the author of the version that created these pics. You essentially create your distortion mesh with a utility tool and the program reads it in at run time. Hoping to have a version ready for release in a few months. There is a preliminary version available in the developers section at the FlightGear website.

Still need to handle the edge blending and that should be done in a week or two. If your interested check out (http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/texture_colour/edgeblend/) as well as other neat stuff on image warping.

JW

[Kennair]

OK thanks JW. Just to clarify, "Undocked Views" is a standard MSFS term that relates to physically undocking a window view and placing it on each monitor or projected image. In this way you can provide a specific angle and zoomed view to each monitor/projector. This is quite particular to MSFS (both FS9 & FSX) which possibly doesn't exist in FlightGear but allows the user to get a full 180 or 210 degree FOV. You can achieve the 3 views to the monitors/projectors with either 3 video outputs from your PC or by using a Matrox Triple Head 2 Go.

Thanks for the link, I'll check out the software.

Cheers,

Ken.

[castle]

Aaah, interesting; you say tomato, I say tomawto ;-)

That is essentially how FG/OSG works as well for multiple monitors, only in this case the term used is "camera". The camera(s) are specified in an xml file that sets the location and orientation in world space, then you assign (bind) a camera to a monitor as well as the size of the FOVs the camera "sees". For image warping, each camera has its own defined mesh which can be adjusted as required to handle any "rough spots". Also affords the ability to emulate a variety of lens types and non-linear distortions, Probably very similar to what Nthusim does. Undoubtedly, the math is the same, just a question of implementation.

On my sim, I'm using a multi-core CPU (4 to be exact) each with its own graphics card and camera (projector). The frame rate is wickedly fast, but that leaves a lot of head room to add greater detail and visual effects.

FYI, I'll be making a presentation on full scale simulators at the University of California Davis in March Anyone in the local area is welcome attend and details as to time and place are on the LUGOD website.

JW

[Kennair]

Thanks JW (BTW any chance of a real name?). It sounds like the software is specifically taylored to FG (unfortunately). As you describe the views config it works pretty much the same as in FSX. What sparked my interest was the "free" comment. I guess you've seen the price of domestic and commercial warping software out there, exhorbitant to say the least.

I notice too that the software link goes to UWA here in WA. That's just down the road from me, what's the affiliation?

Cheers,

Ken.

[castle]

Actually, it's the other way around. The OSG software is sooo generic that it will fit just about anywhere. But you are correct in that you have to pull out the pieces you need,

I'm aware of Nthusim and other commercial imaging software, but have not dug into exactly how they operate. It sounds as if they run as a seperate application taking the imaging output from any other shooter/driver/flyer gaming system, applying a distortion mesh, and then streaming the resultant image onto the projection system. Or perhaps they run as a .dll library addon.

In my case, with complete access to the free source code (and a little help from my friends ;-) ), the warping software was built into the application.

The software has been used to fly UAVs over the Pacific (a NOAA project), study snow plow operations with GPS ( UofMN), a driving simulator, a submarine sim for a middle school in Chicago, and so forth...

UWA is home to Paul Bourke, there are many excellent articles on creating large projection systems and the mathematics behind image warping as well as other topics and numerous references and links. and some neat pics.

Handle is John; there is a short bio at www.lugod.org on the upcoming talk in March.

Regards
John

[choffmann]

Pretty impressive bio, John.
Thanks for your input. As a computer layman, do I get it right, that your software is running in Linux O/S, but could warp the Microsoft FS scenery?
Would love to attend your presentation on full size sims, however, the way is too far cross the pond right now...
BUT: After you delivered your presentation, will it be available in the net somewhere?

Thanks

Chris

[castle]

Pretty impressive bio, John.
Thanks for your input. As a computer layman, do I get it right, that your software is running in Linux O/S, but could warp the Microsoft FS scenery?
Would love to attend your presentation on full size sims, however, the way is too far cross the pond right now...
BUT: After you delivered your presentation, will it be available in the net somewhere?

Thanks

Chris

Last question first: yes it will be available on the LUGOD website. Plan to video tape the presentation and that will also be available. Will most likely break it into "chunks" to make it more manageable.

The software will run on an MS windows machine inside the Flightgear package as it would be included with the source and compiled as part of the binary executable. Using it with FSX or any other variant of the Microsoft simulation would require a bit more work to create it as a plug in or .dll library file. It could be done. A bit outside my area of competence; no idea on licensing issues and EULA or any other aspects of writing software for a Microsoft application.

There are some folks on this forum who are Microsoft types or if you know of any, might be worth having a discussion on that idea.

Regards
John

[choffmann]

I have made more progress with the curved screen: I tried the demo version of
Immersive Display Lite 2 from flyelise-ng, and I am very pleased so far, that I bought a license. The "demo" writing will be vanished soon :-)
Here are some pics. The small black edges in the lower screen part are luckily not perceived from inside the cockpit. Also, I will need some fine tuning of the warping. The scenery is a very nice freeware of Milan Linate (LIML) airport and photorealistic surrounds available from avsim.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/christophhoffmann/P1060266.jpg
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/christophhoffmann/P1060267.jpg
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/christophhoffmann/P1060254.jpg
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/christophhoffmann/P1060251.jpg
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/christophhoffmann/P1060269.jpg

I hope there will be no issues with the pics size, otherwise I will edit the post using the links to the pics.

Chris

[Matt Olieman]

Looks fantastic Chris. Love it!!!! :) :) :)

Pic size works fine for me.

Matt Olieman

[Nick1150]

Great pics Chris !!!!

Just a quick question.... The black edges you are refering are normal in every curved setup ?Could it be something that can be fixed ?

Thanks for sharing Chris :)

[Matt Olieman]

Just noticed what Nick said and went back and looked at the pics. I know with Nthusim I was able to curve all parts of the screen (pull down/pushup center & corners, etc.). Do yo have a boxed test screen? Are there limitations in mmersive Display Lite 2?

Otherwise looking good :)

Matt Olieman

[rjvcarvalho]

You are not using the adjustment grid offered by the software to morph the image and fill the screen completely...

CTRL+SHIFT+F12 - Enable/Disable warping
CTRL+SHIFT+F11 - Toggle warp editing mode (Only if warp is enabled)
The following are only available in editing mode:
CTRL+SHIFT+F5 - Increase the number of horizontal grid points
CTRL+SHIFT+F6 - Decrease the number of horizontal grid points
CTRL+SHIFT+F7 - Increase the number of vertical grid points
CTRL+SHIFT+F8 - Decrease the number of vertical grid points
CTRL+SHIFT+F9 - Increase the number of warping grids
CTRL+SHIFT+F10 - Decrease the number of warping grids
CTRL+SHIFT+TAB - Select the next warping grid
CTRL+SHIFT+R - Reset the warping grid(s)

Your image should look like this when projected on a flat surface.

http://fly.elise-ng.net/images/stories/projection/lite/warpgridedit.jpg

It's all explained in this page:

http://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/immersivedisplaylite2?start=4

[Joe Cygan]

Wow! You guy's sure know how to excite me.

[choffmann]

No, it´s not a restriction of the warping program. It´s due to my projector setup. They are not aligned yet completely, and the black edges are there because of the projector geometry, as Nick suspected. I used the warping commands that Ricardo refers to, and also the grid and box screen, which are both implemented in Immersive Display Lite 2, and they work very well. As I said, it has nothing to do with the software. I just need to better align my projectors, and that´s a bit difficult because the total room height is only 2.3 meters (= 90.55 inches) and the eyepoint-to-screen radius is only 1.65 meters (= 65 inches). To bypass the black edges, I would have to angle the projectors a little bit toward the floor and then do the warping configuration again, but due to the ceiling height restrictions it´s difficult. But I did not play around a lot with the possibilities yet, and I am sure I will find some solution.
I did not try Nthusim yet, but as far as I could find out, one major difference is, that Nthusim will warp your screen whatever it shows, whereas Immersive Display Lite 2 will only warp certain (gaming) programs, in which it is imbeded.

Chris

[Matt Olieman]

Well, this certainly is exciting Chris and I envy you, what a setup!!! Look forward to seeing the final version of your screen setup :) :) :)

Matt Olieman

[JWS]

Chris,

marvelous pictures and I'm sure you'll find a solution for your problems (why not take a piece out of the ceiling).
Off topic, which scenery from Milan Linate do you use?

Regards,

JWS

[castle]

Pretty impressive bio, John.
Thanks for your input. As a computer layman, do I get it right, that your software is running in Linux O/S, but could warp the Microsoft FS scenery?
Would love to attend your presentation on full size sims, however, the way is too far cross the pond right now...
BUT: After you delivered your presentation, will it be available in the net somewhere?

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris,

Due to some real bad winter weather out here disrupting travel plans, we had to reschedule the presentation for September; however if you would like a copy of the presentation I would be happy to send you a copy via PM.

John

[Nick1150]

Hello Chris,

Any update on your project ?

Thanks

[choffmann]

Hi Nick,

thanks for asking. I have been busy lately with my job, so no- no news really from me and I haven´t been around here lately so often.
I installed the latest immersive display lite version and it works really well for me, although I had some problems combining it with the ENB series.
At the moment I am working on a video simulating a checkflight. All the items that must be tested during a check flight are well described here: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1455/CheckFlightHandbookIssue2Point2-April2009.pdf
and here: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1455/SRG_FLT_CFS_300_Issue01_27072006.pdf
It´s a good way to prove your sim has all the various functions available to prove real-world airworthyness. And it´s interesting too because you push your sim to the flight envelope edges doing the overspeed and low-speed stall checks.
I also plan some video about german 737 carrier "Hapag-Lloyd-Kreuzfluege", http://www.hl-kreuzfluege.de/
This site unfortunately is only in german, but from the pics you can see they have some interesting and unconventional routings.
I ordered my first revolution-simproduct: rudder pedals. Will pick ém up at Lelystad Nov. 5th.
Hope you are well.
Will be back soon.

Chris