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mue
04-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Hi!

In the recent past i played around with the idea to get 180 degree field of view with only one single projector. In the following i will describe my thoughts and the outcome.

Projection screen
For the screen there are basically two options:

1) curved screen
2) multiple (three) angled planar screens

I choose the second option, since planar screens are easier to build and the computing and configuration of the necessary image warping (more on this later) seems to be easier too. So I have the following setup:

3789

Every single screen covers a horizontal field of view (hfov) of 60 degrees, gives me a total fov = 180 degree. The vertical fov (vfov) depends on the height of the screens.

Views
To achieve the correct outside visualization you have to project three adequate views on this screens. Each view with hfov=60 degree and vfov=xx degree. One view in the direction 60 degree left on the left screen, one view straight on on the front screen and one view 60 degree right on the right screen. Note: the visualization is only correct for the viewer if he is located at the sweet-spot.
The three views have to be generated by the simulation software, in my case fs2004. In fs2004 you can display multiple views. The view directions can be configured in panel.cfg and the hfov and vfov can be set by resizing and zooming the view windows. Problem here is that fs2004 doesnt show the values of hfov and vfov.

Projection
For the type of projection there are again two options:

1)front projection
2)rear projection

In front projection the viewer sits between projector and screens. Therefore the projector has to placed high above the viewer. But this is not feasible for me because of room constraints. So I opted for rear projection:

3788

If you look from the projector position (rear projection) on the angled screens you will see this:

3791

And that's also the image the projector has to project on the angled screens to achieve correct display of the views. (With the difference that the image has to be mirrored because the projector works in rear projection mode.)
In the image above you see the side screens as a (very) smaller area than the front screen. That means fewer pixels can be projected on the side screens. This results in an inferior and darker picture on the side screens than on the front screen. A further problem is that the projector lose focus on the side screens. This compromise I'm willing to accept, since the viewer looks mainly to the front.

Image Warping
The three view windows the simulation software gives me have to be warped and arranged so that the projected views will match the projection screens. The warping and arrangement of the three views are specified by 8 control points (the corners of the screens).

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The user has to place the control points at the corners of the screens. The following picture shows the screens and the control points from another perspective.

3790

For copying, warping and arranging the view windows I wrote a proxy dll that intercepts directx calls. The dll further displays information of hfov and yfov of the view windows. (information I need for resizing and zooming the views to the right parameter to fit my projection screen setup). The proxy dll doesn't need much computing power: In "warping mode" my framerate only drops from 31 fps to 29 fps. Most work is done by the graphic card.


Here is a summery of the steps the user has to take:

-create the three views in fs2004
-resize and zoom the views to get the right hfov and vfov
-placing the 8 control points at the 8 corners of the screens
-activate the warping

I made a video where i try to show this concept. The image quality is bad despite HD resolution. It seems my cam doesn't like the light condition. The rear projection screens are only a test setup. They are made of 25 cm x 25 cm acrylglas with shower curtain on the projector facing side. Because of the acrylglas I get very bad reflections. But I hope you can see that the warping works. Note that the camera was not located at the sweet-spot so the views doesn't look correct (e.g. "horizon breaks" at the screen edges).

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqyhV2iJZhY

twisted8
04-21-2010, 04:26 PM
very interesting! so the dll you wrote can skew the image inside FS?

Matt Olieman
04-21-2010, 05:00 PM
Concept is fascinating. Unfortunately, an acceptable resolution to throw a projection of 180 degrees would require quite an expensive projector, more $35,000 ++++. Otherwise you would be looking at a bunch of pixels, particularly the stretched side views.

mue
04-22-2010, 04:29 AM
very interesting! so the dll you wrote can skew the image inside FS?

Yes.


Concept is fascinating. Unfortunately, an acceptable resolution to throw a projection of 180 degrees would require quite an expensive projector, more $35,000 ++++. Otherwise you would be looking at a bunch of pixels, particularly the stretched side views.

Yes. You are right. It depends on what one sees as an acceptable resolution. I only have a 1280x720 projector. I still have to test the visualisation in full scale. (Finally, I found appropiate material for my screens: Plexiglas Crystal Ice WM500 SC http://www.plexiglas-shop.com/DE/en/plexiglas-crystal-ice-55pr0hgfpvg/plexiglas-crystal-ice-white-wm500-sc-d9vy80n0s34~p.html)
Btw this concept is scaleable: you can made setups with less than 180 degrees fov ,e.g. 135 degrees (3 x 45 degree screens) or 120 degrees (30 degrees for the side screens and 60 degrees for the front screen) or ... as long as fs2004 can create the individual views.

peter737
04-30-2010, 04:18 PM
Hello,
can you provide this proxy dll ?
Thank you!

Peter

fsaviator
05-01-2010, 01:52 AM
Would this work with a front projection, from above? This is a very interesting effort. Thanks for sharing!

Rockeyes
05-01-2010, 06:10 AM
I’m really interested in this and would love to give it a go. Please keep the posts coming.

mue
05-01-2010, 02:04 PM
Hello,
can you provide this proxy dll ?
Thank you!

Peter

Yes. But beware! The software is in it's alpha stage: it's not very user friendly and probably has some bugs. Use at your own risk!
The software is written for fs2004 and tested/works on windows xp. On windows xp you only have to copy the proxy dll in the fs 2004 application directory. For inserting a proxy dll on vista and windows 7 you probably have to use some other methods. There are some dll injection tools in the internet. But i don't know if they work with my dll.

Ok, here are the proxy dll for the single projector visualisation. Read the readme.txt for instructions for using the dll.

3832



Would this work with a front projection, from above? This is a very interesting effort. Thanks for sharing!

Yes it should work as long as the individual screens are planar.

mue
05-04-2010, 06:23 AM
Yesterday I tested my 180 degree fov concept in full scale with three screens each 80x80cm.
Unfortunatly, I'm not so happy with the results:

The side screens are way to dark and the resolution is too low. I thought i can live with that, but the big difference in the image quality between the front screen and the side screens is very distracting. Even a projector with higher resolution can not solve this problem. Maybe in a front projection setup it looks a little bit better.
So I droped the idea of 180 degree fov and changed to 135 degree fov (3 x 45 degree). Here the side screens are not to much angled and the image quality difference between front screen and side screens is smaller.

The next thing i noted is that for proper alignement/warping of the side views i had to place the control points 1 and 7 more in the direction to the center of the side screens. See this image:
3856
I think it has something to do with the off-axis projection (offset) which most projectors have.
You can place the control points while you are in warping mode. So you can see when the warping looks correct. But beware, the mouse clicks are forwarded to fs2004 and thus the focus of the view windows and thus the order of the view windows can change. If that happens the user has to re-order the view windows.
(See readme.txt in siprovis.zip)

The next feature i'd like to implement is the ability to change the brightness of the individual views, so you can darken the front view that it matches the brightness of the side views.
I'm still experimenting...

fsaviator
05-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the update. While you're not where you want to be yet, this is great work. Interestingly, I've hads to settle with 135 degrees FOV due to space, so I'm monitoring closely.

Thanks again!

Warren

peter737
05-05-2010, 04:21 AM
Hello,
can you send me your saved Flight (with the 3 Windows) from FS, because i need it to test on my System for example. I do anything wrong, but i don´t know what i do wrong. Maybe i understand the desciption wrong.:(
Here my "WARP" in FS:http://www4.pic-upload.de/thumb/05.05.10/8seyhum5hi46.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-5526269/FS-Fail.jpg.html)

Thanks
Peter

mue
05-05-2010, 05:12 AM
Hello,
can you send me your saved Flight (with the 3 Windows) from FS, because i need it to test on my System for example. I do anything wrong, but i don´t know what i do wrong. Maybe i understand the desciption wrong.:(
Thanks
Peter

It seems that the control points are placed wrong. I hope the following picture clarifies how the point (numbers) have to be placed:

3859

Does it work with the default control point configuration: Restart fs2004. Start a new flight. Open three views (For testing it doesn't matter which views). And press ctrl-shift-a ?

peter737
05-05-2010, 09:01 AM
Hi mue,
that´s what I do:
Step1:
http://picupload.org/i/t/a36d1bd33c04.jpg (http://picupload.org/i/a36d1bd33c04.jpg)
Step2:
http://picupload.org/i/t/d049fd7c8d00.jpg (http://picupload.org/i/d049fd7c8d00.jpg)
Step3:
http://picupload.org/i/t/cc5ad4eab49c.jpg (http://picupload.org/i/cc5ad4eab49c.jpg)

mue
05-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Ok, probably a bug in my dll. Never release software in it's alpha stage! ;)
What graphic card do you have and what resolution / color depth do you run?

peter737
05-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Hallo mue,
ich sehe gerade, du bist auch aus Deutschland:o Ich benutze eine Geforce 8800 GTX 1280x1024 32bit Farbtiefe; ich habe es auch in einem Virtual PC getestet, aber da ist das leider das gleiche Problem; habe auch den FS im Fenstermodus getestet, ist immer das gleiche Problem, egal wie ich die 3 Fenster anordne oder welche Größe die Fenster haben.
#Gruß
Peter

mue
05-06-2010, 04:14 PM
Hallo mue,
ich sehe gerade, du bist auch aus Deutschland:o Ich benutze eine Geforce 8800 GTX 1280x1024 32bit Farbtiefe; ich habe es auch in einem Virtual PC getestet, aber da ist das leider das gleiche Problem; habe auch den FS im Fenstermodus getestet, ist immer das gleiche Problem, egal wie ich die 3 Fenster anordne oder welche Größe die Fenster haben.
#Gruß
Peter

Here in the forum we should stick with english because not all user understand german:wink:

I played around with the graphic settings in fs2004 and I think I found something.
The option (I have the german version) "Einstellungen->Anzeige->Hardware: Transformieren und Beleuchtung" (I think in the english version it's "settings->display->hardware: transform and lighting") has to be enabled. If I disable this option I get the same error like you.

wody
01-09-2011, 05:04 PM
Hello mue,

bringing this thread alive again. Did you succeed with you concept?

I am starting now with my visuals. First I will buy a Benq MX613ST or a MP525ST (only one now). My room is only 2,50m wide. so 135 deg will be the maximum I'm afraid.

If this is not possible I will stick to only 1 screen.

Thanks for any hint

Peter

mue
01-26-2011, 05:04 PM
Hello mue,

bringing this thread alive again. Did you succeed with you concept?

I am starting now with my visuals. First I will buy a Benq MX613ST or a MP525ST (only one now). My room is only 2,50m wide. so 135 deg will be the maximum I'm afraid.

If this is not possible I will stick to only 1 screen.

Thanks for any hint

Peter

Sorry for answering so late!

In the past I made some further experiments with a (temporary) 135 degree setup but in the end I was not fully satisfied with the result (the side screens were too dark and the image resolution was too low).
Besides that, I didn't have enough space in my man cave anymore to install a permanent 135 degree setup, so I was forced to skip this concept and stick to one single screen anyway.

OmniAtlas
10-10-2012, 08:07 AM
How is everyones 180 degree one projector system coming along?

Do you think this system would work well with the new short throw 1080p models now out in the market?

I'm planning to setup a single seat trainer (JetMax, 2/3 MIP) so width of the screen will be less then the double seaters allowing for more wrap around within a limited space.

Would the side images still be very distorted with a 1080p projector? I will be planning to use Immersive Display Lite 2 to wrap around the visuals.

Thanks,

Ben

OmniAtlas
10-21-2012, 04:18 AM
Hi bumped -- I'm still thinking of using one ultrashort-throw 1080p projector vs 2 720p projector, anyone experimented?

mue
11-15-2012, 05:59 AM
Hi bumped -- I'm still thinking of using one ultrashort-throw 1080p projector vs 2 720p projector, anyone experimented?
I realised that one projector, even full hd, has not enough (horizontal) resolution to produce a good image quality for 180 degrees. So I didn't pursued this idea any further.
Thus I think two projectors is a better option for 180 degrees visualisation. Even if the two projectors are only 720p, they will give you a greater horizontal resolution ( 2x1280 > 1920). The disadvantage of a two projector setup is that you have the blending area of the two projectors right in front of you. I haven't used blending software myself and I don't know how good the results are.

I myself built a 3 projector setup that gave me 210 degrees (after moving to a bigger house, I had the space for this). I thought that would give me a greater immersive experience. Since I wanted to use my home cockpit for different aircrafts I used a touch tft screen in front of me for the instrumentation. The feeling of flying was indeed very good with this 210 degree setup. But the immersion of sitting in an cockpit were not, because I didn't had an enclosed cockpit, only the touch tft screen.

Now I'm back to an one projector setup. It uses rear projection on an 1.4 meter x 0.8 meter screen with a full hd projector. I sit very near to the screen. The distance between my head and the screen is 0.7 meter. That gives me a fov of 90 degrees. I added touch functionality to my projection screen. Together with trackir I can use the virtual cockpits on this big touch screen. Overall I'm quite satisfied with the immersion it gives me.
More details together with some pictures and a video of my current setup you can find in my post at the digital combat simulator forum (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89624).

OmniAtlas
02-07-2013, 05:41 AM
Any updates on your project? I'm wondering how this would work with one short throw projector. Here is a '180' view with one projector setup with the Jetmax
7492

Flybywoody
06-28-2013, 07:28 AM
Hey Omni, which short throw projector did you have your eye on?? I'm trying to find a suitable setup at the moment too. I think 2 will give enough detail to do the job.

OmniAtlas
06-28-2013, 07:47 AM
I'm looking at the w1080st.

I'm going to try and mimic the iDome, Cobra Curve screen setup --


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F36SHN_FykM

Flybywoody
06-28-2013, 08:12 AM
Nice idea, might find that projector will throw a huge image in that setup, but its a nice projector..

What mirror and software will you use? Still plan to use immersive display lite 2?