Projection Vs. LCD [Archive]

jer166

12-20-2009, 02:25 AM

Can someone give me some advice on what is going to look the best and fastest? I have been researching this for a long time now and can't seem to make up my mind which way to go. Any suggestions?

BHawthorne

12-20-2009, 03:33 AM

A lot has to do with your build goals. What sort of simpit are you building? Does it have a long term location to be built in? Projection is immensely more immersive than LCD, but it comes with the understanding that bulbs are expensive and you'll need to buy one every 2500-4000 hours or so. That roughly equates to a bulb every 2 years or so. Just keep that in mind if you do go projection. $300 spread out over 2 years of use for a bulb isn't bad considering what projection does for immersion.

Sean Nixon

12-20-2009, 05:39 AM

After seeing the results (albeit on YouTube videos) that can be had with multiple projectors and curved screens, I'm going down that route. I've had to double the area allocated to my pit, but I'm lucky enough to have that option (taking all the garage instead of half of it).

Having said that, if I'd been stuck with half the space, I'd still go with projection. A short throw projector will give you a much bigger image than a single LCD, and putting multiple screens together would not only be more expensive, but I'd never be happy with seeing the bezels.

What do you mean by 'look the best and fastest'. They'll both run at the same speed, unless you are refering to setup times?

Sean

brynjames

12-20-2009, 05:52 AM

Sean Nixon

12-20-2009, 06:33 AM

To be honest, I'm unsure about the sharpness issue. I have a very old VGA (800x600) projector that I was given, and it's rubbish, not sharp, very dim (and noisy). But I've been to training seminars lately where they are using newer DLP projectors, and the sharpness/brightness of the images are excellent (not to mention the projectors are barely audible). So I think they've come a long way. I'm buying one soon to experiment.

One other thing to consider is your resolution. 1280x1024 means a more expensive projector. I'm not sure you can get one with that native resolution. I'll be starting out with XGA (1024x768 ).

But eliminating multiple monitor bezels would be more a priority for me than image quality, provided the image quality was acceptable of course.

One question I have, if a projectors native resolution is 1024x768, but it supports, say 1440x900, can this higher resolution be used effectively?

Sean

jer166

12-20-2009, 12:28 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I guess it comes don t setup. Is using projestion going to be the same computer setup. I noticed a lot guys using triple head to go with three projectors. There are also some guys using five 50" LCD screens and wraping their simpit. Is the disadvantage of this system the having to use five or six computers, or is it the advantage? My goal is a smooth running simulator, wrap around or curved screen with good to great picture. Does this automatically mean I am using multiple-computers? I have built a cessna simpit and was originally thinking of mounting computer monitors in the windows of the side doors and the three in the front with a slight curve. I have two ATI graphics cards with dual monitor capability but have not been able to get any good results with it. Which one Projection or LCD?

BHawthorne

12-20-2009, 07:23 PM

How about sharpness?

1280x1024 or whatever looks very sharp on an LCD screen, but I have the impression (maybe wronly) that projection systems aren't nearly as sharp, because of focus problems, small variations in screen surface etc.

Given wall size vs LCD size of course the LCD will be sharpest. With outside visuals, wall size has an immensely larger impact on your immersion factor than sharpness does. It's the difference between looking into a small box vs having your whole field of view covered. No contest. Now if you can pull off whole field of view properly with LCDs that would be the sharpest, but that is really difficult without bezel placement interfering. When you're flying around in a full 180 degree circular projection, your mind isn't thinking about the sharpness of the screen, it's thinking about the full field of view it sees.

Thanks for the input guys. I guess it comes don t setup. Is using projestion going to be the same computer setup. I noticed a lot guys using triple head to go with three projectors. There are also some guys using five 50" LCD screens and wraping their simpit. Is the disadvantage of this system the having to use five or six computers, or is it the advantage? My goal is a smooth running simulator, wrap around or curved screen with good to great picture. Does this automatically mean I am using multiple-computers? I have built a cessna simpit and was originally thinking of mounting computer monitors in the windows of the side doors and the three in the front with a slight curve. I have two ATI graphics cards with dual monitor capability but have not been able to get any good results with it. Which one Projection or LCD?

TH2G vs. multiple computers. There is always several ways to go about doing things. One way is to use several cheaper computers in a master-slave design. I prefer one high quality computer and TH2G. Both have different posative and negative factors. The main issue with TH2G is making sure everything looks right in the field of view. With multiple computers, it's maintaining sync with the master computer. My reasoning for going TH2G is to lower the complexity of the build as to not introduce more potential for failure points in the hardware design.

N242AM

12-21-2009, 09:14 AM

Don't forget the heat factor. Three projectors are going to throw out a lot. Not a real problem in the Winter, but surely one in the Summer. Add in the heat from the computers and it will get real warm especially if in a semi or fully-enclosed cockpit.

ignatiusmael

12-21-2009, 10:24 AM

No Longer Active

12-21-2009, 10:53 AM

If its a Cessna pit that you have then the actual viewing area required is not that great.

I would be more than happy with 2 x 24" LCD Monitors for front view, and a square 19" for left and right view attached.

I would put the 2 x 24" Monitors on a DUALHEAD2GO and slightly lean them towards you around 7-8 degrees. I do this and it gives a great little windshield effect without the runway looking like its pointing up....

Cessna's are very enclosed anyway, i like the way that monitors can wrap around you. The bezel is annoying but if you are only using 2 screens then you will just have 1 pillar in the middle of the viewing area, but then its not all that bad because some GA aircraft have a pillar in the middle such as the pa-28, so in this example it would work out well, see the pilar in this picture:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:elfS_L4VUXdGyM:http://www.arch-spada.com/panels/pa28k4.jpg

So personally I'd go for the setup I mentioned, it does a have a few cons but perfect for a GA setup.

Sean Nixon

12-21-2009, 11:08 AM

If its a Cessna pit that you have then the actual viewing area required is not that great.

The outside view is surely independant of aircraft type? Small planes have the same outside view as large ones?? In some cases more glass = more to see.

That's not to say your intended setup won't give good results. ;)

BHawthorne

12-21-2009, 10:09 PM

HI.
Generally Projection is used for commercial or educational purpose.
Where as LCD is used as a Commercial as well as Private purpose.
The most consideration part is that cost of product. Projection is costlier than LCD.

Generalizations like that are bad for progress of the community. Everything can be done on a hobby budget. If you're using multiple LCDs, you might as well use a projector. 2 24" LCDs = projector price. I used LCDs for years before going projector. It's just one of those things you have to experience to understand the difference. I'm not saying LCDs aren't a viable route to go. I'm just saying that for outside visualization you can't currently beat projection for immersion factor.

jer166

12-22-2009, 12:49 AM

Always enjoy all the good input. I think projection is probably the way I am going to go. Now all I need to do is find the right one.

What is bezel?

BHawthorne

12-22-2009, 02:18 AM

What is bezel?

Just the technical term for the frame around a display.

saabpilot

12-22-2009, 03:00 AM

My 10 cents ...
If you can afford 3 short throw projectors - and can get the sim room enough cooled with those then that is the way to go.

The screens does NOT need to be curved as many tend to believe - you will get a better picture with one center and 2 outer screens in 45-60 deg angles.
Also there is a neat trick using a TH2Go card to feed them - a "composite" picture with 2 side, one front and a hidden fourth view all from one fast PC.

This has been proven first in Australia and now at Vasteras Air Museum in Sweden who has this setup on one DC-10 and one CV440 Metropolitan simulator.
The Metro previously used WideView and 3 projectors, but that setup is now discontinued.
Check their website : www.flygmuseum.com/

If you cannot use projectors, second choise would be a TH2Go Digital setup with 3 22" LCD:s. Digital since you then can stretch the picture "under" the bezels.

Best,
Bjorn

www.boeing737sim.se

Tomlin

12-22-2009, 09:28 AM

Hi Bjorn

I am familiar with Nic's setup with 3 projectors and 5 views but the 'composite' part is a bit confusing for me. Can you elaborate a bit for clarity? My understanding is that there are 5 views (Left, Fwd Left, FWD, Fwd Right, Right) with a 6th view of the sky (straight up) stretched behind it for some reason. Is that what you mean by composite?

saabpilot

12-22-2009, 10:02 AM

Hi,

The results from the 4 screen setup is truly amazing.

The screens consist of front and two sideviews + an additional "hidden" screen which is needed for the system to remember screenpositions between sessions.

The first setup this way was the DC-10 and the guys thought a curved screen was needed so that one must use SOL-7.
However they implemented this on the Metro afterwords and skipped SOL-7 since the Metro had 3 large flat screens in 45-60 degree angles in front of the aircraft.
The result was the exact same to the eyes with or without curved screens.

Since I am not myself using this setup and thus do not have details first hand, you should contact the guys at Vasteras Air Museum, they are a real helpful and friendly bunch.

Best and
Merry X-mas from Sweden,
Bjorn

iFabio2

12-22-2009, 11:10 AM

BHawthorne

12-22-2009, 10:13 PM

if I might add my opinion (as I am trying both to decide which way to go). I would say that the biggest issue to consider is space. if you have the space for the sim AND the projector panels then go for the projectors (1024x768 aren't that pricey after all compared to decent monitors), it will a very different story!!!
If you don't have the space then go for the monitors.

fabio

The largest issue can be space, but if you don't have enough room to even do a single projector let alone 3, you might revisit what simpit aircraft you're going to do. My 3 projector circular projection setup is about as exotic as you can do currently with a hobby setup. It's an extreme example. Even using just a single screen or using 2 or 3 projectors on flat angled screens is highly effective.

As others mentioned in the thread Sol7 isn't really needed but it is quite effective in advanced keystone correction even with flat screens. If you want your projection to fit the exact screen you use and pre-warp the image accordingly Sol7 is pretty much your only hobby choice. The only other way is to take an extreme amount of time aligning the projectors to perfectly match up the edges. Ceiling mounting projectors and making sure they're 100% perfectly alligned by hand is a total pain. I'm sure others can elaborate on how difficult it is to line up and maintain the projection edge perfectly that first time mounting the ceiling mounts. Adding in mirrors even doubles the complexity.

jer166

12-23-2009, 01:28 AM

BHawthorne

12-23-2009, 01:48 AM

I have as much room as I need in my basement but only have 8' ceilings. If I build a curved screen from floor to ceiling will I be able to get the projectors mounted high enough (with a full size cockpit) to fill up the entire screen?

The current room I'm using isn't even 8 foot tall in the basement. What simpit type are you planning?

jer166

12-27-2009, 03:15 AM

Here is a question. Take a 737 shell from FDS, In a perfect flight sim what would be the best immersion factor?
1. Mounting LCD Screens in the windows?
2. 180 or 200 degree FOV on an outside curved screen?

I also have concerns about getting triple head2go. It seems like you need five projectors to get your 180 degree FOV one for each view in FSX, forward, forward left, left, forward right, right. How does this work? The visuals are no doubt the toughest part of the build for me. I think I will be purchasing three optoma EX525ST projectors based on what everyone has posted here. Might wait for more feedback. Thanks for the help.

jer166

12-27-2009, 03:19 AM

I have built a GA pit for now. I will build a lear 45 or 737 in the future if I can ever figure out the outside visuals.

Sean Nixon

12-27-2009, 04:57 AM

Search the forum with the word projector or even better sol7. In the answers you will find photographs of at least 2 setups here where 3 projectors are projecting an almost 180 degree view in rooms about 8ft high. In one setup, they are on top of the shell (737), in another they are on the floor. You'll also see youtube videos of the sims in action so you can make your own mind up if you'd be happy with the results.

In my opinion, and this is based solely on what I've read/seen on mycockpit, if you have the width in your sim room (at least 4m), then for the money, 3 projectors and some sort of screen, be it curved or angled, gives visuals far surpassing anything you could achieve with multiple monitors.

I'm not saying that good results are not possible with monitors/tv's or the like, but I've yet to see a monitor setup I'd be happy with (that compares to the projector route).

If you don't have the width for the 3 projector route, then compromises are going to have to be made and that's when I see the projector versus monitor debate opening up. But in a 15ft wide room, there's no contest.

I get the impression the visuals are important to you (as they are to me). Perhaps you should buy the projectors/TH2G and start to experiment. I know it's a lot of cash, but it's something your going to have to get at some point, be it projectors or monitors.

Sean