PMSystems?!

[coolmanak]

Hello guys.

As I'm progressing more and more with my simplified A320 simulator (RMP and overhead panels will be ariving next week! :grin: ) I'm moving now onto the software side of things.

In all my years of simulation, I have NEVER understood the point of PMSystems and Aircraft-Type Software.

First off, why can a person not simply undock the windows from their aircraft panel and put it onto the screen? Why do people dish out $1000+ for PM gauges (IE Airbus-Type Software). Perhaps for commercial simulators where you need a certified product, but why do people spend this money?

And what about PMSystems? I realize that it gives realistic "systems" and control of the overhead panel. What's the point if you're using an aircraft such as the Level D 767 or PMDG products that have already very good overhead panels? Is it just needed when a lower-quality aircraft is used, to boost it up to a higher "class"? And why do people pay so much for it if this is all it does.

Thanks for the help, I'm quite confused here.

[Peter Dowson]

First off, why can a person not simply undock the windows from their aircraft panel and put it onto the screen? Why do people dish out $1000+ for PM gauges (IE Airbus-Type Software).

Because we are using hardware overheads, hardware MCPs, hardware radio stacks, hardware MIPs, the works -- not just pretend panels on screens, but real ones with gauges, lights and switches.

This is about building a cockpit and flying it, not just flying a PC with a bunch of screens on a desk, fun that might be. If you get a chance to visit a user with a decent cockpit, jump at the chance. You'll realise why, and once the bug has bitten it's hard to give it up. That's what happened to me, but being totally useless practically (except wiring and programming), I saved up for years and eventually bought a ready-made cockpit. I had to, after experiencing one myself.

There are some folks (our own 737 Ian for one, I know) who have managed to build the hardware around the gauges and window parts from add-ons like the PMDG aircraft, but it has been a bit of a pain getting hardware to operate the switches and worse to get the indicators and gauge readings back to hardware displays. It is becoming a little easier to do that, folks are finding ways -- the work done on the Level D 767 is really exemplary, but then the makers of that airrcraft were wise enough to open it up a lot for such development.

Project Magenta has been going now for over 10 years, and many sophisticated cockpits have been going nearly that long, which is really more than you can say about FS add-ons. Yes, things are changing, but there are also now alternatives to Project Magenta in the non-addon-panel dependent arena -- SimAvionics, Flight Deck Software, and FSXpand, to name the main three.

Is it now more understandable?

Regards
Pete

[coolmanak]

When I ment undocking windows, I ment the PFD, MFD, ECAS and ECAM windows, which are what PM covers in their aircraft gauges packages.

PMSystems makes sence to me now, but PM gauge packages still do not. I've been doing just fine with undocking my PFD, MFD, ECAS and ECAM windows and putting them on a monitor, but if PM gauges are really worth the $1000 + that they cost, I'd consider switching.

[coolmanak]

Also, if we use pre-made panels (I.E. GoFlight, some CockpitSonic, etc) that are designated as either "plug and play" or have a certain kind of software that you are instructed to buy to make them work, would that still require PMSystems to run it?

I personally up until this point (and this point may or may not be a turning point) have used FSUIPC's MouseTrapper to record every single switch, pushbutton, or knob turn, push, or flip on the overhead panel of the aircraft I am working with, and simply assigned my hardware (some cockpitsonic, some goflight) switches, knobs, and pushbuttons to do those actions. I didn't have any trouble with that, and it appears to work fine.

Are doing things like these fine without PMSystems? Is it more for home-built panels, panels that display numbers, etc?

Thanks for the help! I'd only like to pay for PMSystems (it's a lot of money) if it's necesarry, and right now I'm not sure if it is or isn't for me.

[autocadplease]

When I ment undocking windows, I ment the PFD, MFD, ECAS and ECAM windows, which are what PM covers in their aircraft gauges packages.

Remember PM includes the CDU / FMC which is the brains of it all.

Undocking panels is possible, but usually reduces your performance. Some high machines can handle it but networked stand alone panels help to spread out the processing requirements and helps keep FS performance as high as possible. What framerate are you getting?

As Project Magenta user, all I can say is it is worth the money. You are comparing apples to oranges when comparing FS panels and PM.

You don't need PM Systems to use most PnP modules, but it allows them to be highly realistic. PM Systems acts as an interface between the hardware and FS.

But all this wouldn't be possible without FSUIPC - THANK YOU PETER DOWSON!!!!:D:D:D

[coolmanak]

Alright, I understand it better now.

I'll just have to get my checkbook out...

And I agree, Oranges are way better!

[autocadplease]

Try the demos. You have to fly around LAX, but fully functional.

[mondo50m]

I agree with Coolmanak. This is supposed to be a hobby, a high end hobby at the very least, but still a hobby. The way the prices of some of the software and hardware is getting out of control. I could never hope to be able to used the PM software, or the FDS panels. Those are reserved for those few who can afford such "luxuries". I have spent 2 years trying to build panels and FSBUS cards, korries, annunciators, a throttle.

I fnanally built a cnc router to get my panels right. This fantastic tool cost 1/2 of the price of the MIP from FDS. The 'hobby' is no longer a hobby, it has become big business and left the true hobbiests behind in the wake.


just my 2 cents.

[autocadplease]

Well, I remember when the only add-on aircraft and panels available were the ones users submitted. When I saw the first payware aircraft and panels, I laughed.:shock:

mondo50m: What CNC router did you build? I built a Rockcliff Machine CNC and am in the process of building a Joe's CNC Hybrid 4x4.

[coolmanak]

Would VasFMC work in the place of the PM gauges?

It can be used on another computer, and everything is very similar to PM. It's just about as realistic in terms of the gauges, but the MCDU isn't perfect. However I could simply use my aircraft MCDU on a touchscreen. One single panel wouldn't hurt performance too much.

What do you guys think of VasFMC? (free by the way).

[mondo50m]

Hi. I built the hobbycnc unit....not a bad unit, but very limited. It handles 1/4" material quite well. I do not like to get on a soap box, but I do not understand how the complete simulator program can cost $69.95 and just one small part of that software done better is worth a grand......that is the problem with this world, everyone wants to get rich on the backs of the rest of the world. I can build a decent overhead panel for about $50 worth of plastic now that I have the router. I'll shut up now.

My other 2 cents, now I am broke.

[autocadplease]

There is also Alpha FMC http://members.quicknet.nl/scumari/fmc/

[coolmanak]

Which would be great if I was using a Boeing ;)

Thanks for the help though

[dnoize]

I do not like to get on a soap box, but I do not understand how the complete simulator program can cost $69.95 and just one small part of that software done better is worth a grand......

Sigh..... Here we go again. This is only covered a zillion times here: its all a matter of volume. Pmdg's and the likes sell in the tens of thousands (20 000 copies of pmdg sold in just the first 2 months)

Project Magenta sold just a few thousand copies in 10 years !
Offering free updates all these 10 years! Now try that with Microsoft.

Yet they have to employ a team of 4 people !

Now people say sales volumes will rise when prices drop, but there simply arent that many cockpit builders ... Not going to happen.
that is the problem with this world, everyone wants to get rich on the backs of the rest of the world. I can build a decent overhead panel for about $50 worth of plastic now that I have the router. I'll shut up now.

My other 2 cents, now I am broke.

try building a overhead commercially for 50 dollars, employ a team of a couple of men/women, pay the bills for professional equipment like cnc's, laser (high volumes),painting booth, etc, pay your bills for the building, materials, taxes, etc AND survive .... And you will be a happy man :-)

if you can afford commercial parts and think you need them: get them. If not, look for alternatives. Like your own cnc. I think that adds alot to the hobby and thats a great thing.

Personally i dont understand why a Ferrari costs 300 000 euro's while its only a pile of metal, plastic and leather while that cant be worth more than 20 000 euros ;-) :-)

[spiro]

i would like to add to that saying that it is hard when a company that has pro tools and a team building panels and all sorts of stuff has a lot and a lot
of bills to pay at the end of the month even when bussnes is not going so good the bills are the same:sad::sad:but if you put it all together hear in greece i personaly can not find a cnc router kit to build i whould see it as fun to and the chepest is 4500euro descktop type +vat so with that money it is not woth it than you need so many more tools and if you go out buy them with the same money you can get a butiful ready sim so its tha same thing hear in greece i find some hard were expensive too and not saying ant names the value of the products i bellive are not realy worth there money but every one has to live!! as for the electronics part i am a car electronic and have my own work shopi find most switchs leds rotary encorders pushbuttons and so on at 4 times cheper than on any sight (the same type too)so i can imagen the proffit they make and it is a bit too much thay dont think making better prices more pepole will buy so more and new things can be made and more pepole will get more involved with this hobbie imagen 1 rotary encorder that costs say 6,00euro gose down to 2 euros(witch it can very easylly) some one with a low income that would buy say 2 rotary encorders for 6 euros if they were 2 euros he could buy 6 :Dand be very happy i think both would and the buyer and the seller this gose for softwere too i am not saying for no one to make a profit we all have to live i am just saying with better prices more will be involed and sellers will have more work building and selling;)
sorry if it is a bit off topic

[Peter Dowson]

Also, if we use pre-made panels (I.E. GoFlight, some CockpitSonic, etc) that are designated as either "plug and play" or have a certain kind of software that you are instructed to buy to make them work, would that still require PMSystems to run it?

I think you misunderstand the nature of PM (and Sim-Avionics, etc). pmSystems relates to the rest of PM. The MCP relates to the CDU and the PFD/ND/EICAS displays relate to those. It's an integrated system, in the same way as the PMDG aircraft are integrated systems. You can't really mix and match. If you buy a ready-made subsystem (MCP or whatever) it may or may not have PM support -- and it may or may not have PMDG support. etc etc.


I personally up until this point (and this point may or may not be a turning point) have used FSUIPC's MouseTrapper to record every single switch, pushbutton, or knob turn, push, or flip on the overhead panel of the aircraft I am working with, and simply assigned my hardware (some cockpitsonic, some goflight) switches, knobs, and pushbuttons to do those actions. I didn't have any trouble with that, and it appears to work fine.Yes, but that was a method I discovered by hacking only relatively recently. And it still isn't something that has worked for the last 10 years and would still necessarily work for the next, with different FS versions etc (excepting that there's no more versions of FS :-( ).

And it doesn't in itself help drive hardware at all -- it only allows switches to be assigned. Folks are maybe managing to find ways of getting their hardware gauges and indicators operating, but I'm not sure how. There are a lot of indicators on the overhead which need to be enabled correctly, there are the 6-packs, the warning lights, the fire subsystem on the central console. Etc etc.


Are doing things like these fine without PMSystems? Is it more for home-built panels, panels that display numbers, etc?You can't really use pmSystems on its own, as I say. It works with the other parts. And you can't replace the systems used inside the PMDG aircraft without discarding the PMDG panels --- as I have done. I use the PMDG 737, but with no gauges, no panels. I use it for the flight model and aircraft body only.

Regards
Pete

[jeehell]

Did you consider my software?
It's directly aimed at the airbus A320, can work over a network, has all instruments (PFD, ND, EWD, SD), a MCDU and now even overhead and system logic (similar to pmSystems, ok less advanced than theirs, but hey it's free)
It's still not in a final state, but it's fully flyable, and I'd rather need extra hands to test it!!
http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17680 (be sure to get the latest beta 5.3)

[coolmanak]

Jeehell, I've been trying that software for a couple hours now, and it's absolutley AMAZING!!!

Thanks so much for putting all that effort into such a wonderfull product!