Fly Engravity v's Flight Deck Solutions..............

[wazjones]

Hi Guys,

Just interested in your thoughts on the MIP's from Fly Engravity v's Flight Deck Solutions???

From your experience which one would you consider the most complete straight out of the box???

I would like to build a 737 Sim and am currently in the research stage & would appreciate any advice...........


Cheers, Warren.

[Philb737]

Fly Engravity!!!!!!!!!!!! Two thumbs up!!:D:D:D

[Trevor Hale]

I agree. I personally Own the Engravity product, and have compared it to FlightDecksolutions..

Engravity all the way.

[fordgt40]

Just to even up the score I checked out both and went for FDS! It really depends on what you want and the extent to which you are prepared to fabricate things youself.

For example do you want the option of a complete ready made framework to hold togther the MIP with a MCP tray and support for a glareshield or not

Do you want integral backlighting

Are hardware items eg knobs, annunciators etc included

Check the forums for service feedback, quality issues etc.

Ask the suppliers questions - how quickly do they respond?

There is no direct answer to your question - completeness out of the box depends on what you ordered. For what it is worth, I did a spreadsheet of the respective options, what was included, price etc and then made a decision based on my "drivers", which were weighted towards completeness of the whole MIP assembly options and not price. I have enough work building all the other components!

Regards

David

[Trevor Hale]

The hard part is both companies offer all the same features as David listed. You just need to look at lead times and price.

[ran56]

Can't tell much on Engravity as I didn't have anything with them.
On the other hand, there are not enough good words in the world
to describe Peter Cos and his FDS team and their work.
Top notch products with top notch support.

[project 727]

While we are at it,
Can anyone comment on the Cockpitsonic MIP as well?
Thanks
Joe Maldonado
PROJECT727
www.xsn.net/project727

[Trevor Hale]

ACK! :shock:

But but but but thats not a 727? ROFL

[Jackpilot]

Just my experience as an FDS user.

1) Both companies constantly put out new products on the market, so any comparison should be made between "apples", regarding prices and specs.
2) Depending how far you want to go, consider how you will integrate all components.
Both companies supply very good internal elements like MIP, MIP stand,Overhead, etc.
Personnally, I see a plus with FDS as their line goes on with their own Hardware for the MCP/ EFIS/ AVIONICS and their own Interfacing Cards and Software, modular Shell and Interior liners, that all fit together.
There is a risk associated with building a serious Sim with parts coming from different suppliers or generation of product and not always totally compatible in size or performance..

My 2¢

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

dont forget to build in the import taxes and shipping charges.....
regards ... ian

[oal331]

First, I agree with ian, about the shipping cost and import taxes. Check them !!

Also, have in your mind, that if you want a turn of key solution, you have to buy all the products from one company, do not mix them !! Ie, don't plan to buy the MIP from one and the MCP and Glares from the other. They will not fit together.

But if you want and you can also work like "do it yourself" and you have the available free time you may mix some parts, but not in the same place.

Both companies have high quality products and long time history.

I choose Engravity's MIP and Overhead, even they was a little more expensive, because they are inside European Union, so i don't have to afraid about import taxes and also they have a high quality after sales support.

Good luck with your cokpit ;)

[Kitsok]

Well, another 2 cents from me.

We have both of them, so I can compare.

FDS:
- poor support. Near to nothing. Can't fix the bug with A/T switch for 2 weeks.
- bad connection layout. MCP + 2 EFIS = 3 USB cables + 3 power cords (9 volts if I'm correct) + 1 12Volt cable (for that A/T switch) + backlight cable. The last two are cables, not connectors, keep this in mind.
- MTRS button on F/O EFIS doesn't work
- software (FDS-Glare) is buggy. The backlight of the buttons was fixed far too late after the purchase. Actually they sold us unusable device, and it still has many major problems.
- the direction of the V/S wheel is swapped (comparing with the real B737)
+ real looking. I think the buttons, knobs and switches are from the real B737
+ correct colors for indication and backlight

Engravity:
- incorrect colors
- looks like the really expensive, but ... toy
+ very good connection layout. 2 EFIS + MCP = 1 USB + 1 power cord. And that's all.
+ Software is OK. Was found and connected in minutes
Support... I don't know. We had no reasons for the support.


All is IMHO.

[aviaparts]

I'm sure that both companies have good products, but I can say that Fly Engravity gives very good products, on time delivery, good and fast support.
I have been very happy with their products, next to that, their work with CPFlight, another well respected company, resulted in a nice set of avionics.
So A+++ from my side for Fly Engravity.

[ivar hestnes]

Well, another 2 cents from me.

We have both of them, so I can compare.

FDS:
- poor support. Near to nothing. Can't fix the bug with A/T switch for 2 weeks.
- bad connection layout. MCP + 2 EFIS = 3 USB cables + 3 power cords (9 volts if I'm correct) + 1 12Volt cable (for that A/T switch) + backlight cable. The last two are cables, not connectors, keep this in mind.
- MTRS button on F/O EFIS doesn't work
- software (FDS-Glare) is buggy. The backlight of the buttons was fixed far too late after the purchase. Actually they sold us unusable device, and it still has many major problems.
- the direction of the V/S wheel is swapped (comparing with the real B737)
+ real looking. I think the buttons, knobs and switches are from the real B737
+ correct colors for indication and backlight

Engravity:
- incorrect colors
- looks like the really expensive, but ... toy
+ very good connection layout. 2 EFIS + MCP = 1 USB + 1 power cord. And that's all.
+ Software is OK. Was found and connected in minutes
Support... I don't know. We had no reasons for the support.


All is IMHO.

I have personally worked on this project, and I can say that there is a lot more into this story than what is being discussed on the quoted post. But that is information that will be only between the two parties involved. Not for public amusement.

I dont think that Peter will come here to discuss a software issue like that, when it should have been discussed between the two groups involved.

My personal experience with FDS support during the last three and a half years is very different to the description above. Software issues can take some time to fix, specially on items that are not even officially released. But they always fix. And they do it good.

Talking on a hobby forum like this, calling engravitys MCP a toy, which is very unfair to them, and damaging FDS reputation like this wont help the software issue that you have. Perhaps the owner of the sim is already discussing the issues with Peter, and they both are fully aware of the things that need to be corrected. And the rest of the job. You can have a look. It does look very good to me. http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/view_page.php?id=71

:)

[ChrisKLAS]

I'm with Ivar here. My MIP and shell are FDS (in the interest of full disclosure, I'm using the CPFlight/Engravity EFIS and MCP pro line in place of the FDS hardware), and I've never had any issues with the FDS hardware. Their support has also been nothing short of outstanding.

[Jackpilot]

Always got fast and efficient help from FDS, and I am very far from being a major customer.

Jack

[Kitsok]

People,

first of all, I don't have a goal to somehow damage anybodys' reputation. I'd rather prefer that people are ready for the special features of both products BEFORE they've paid.

I had both of the MCPs in my hand and my personal opinion is - FDS MCP is definitly not the "ready off the shelf product", and Engravity MCP is not intended for the FBPT.

All other aspects are welcome to be discussed in private.

[ChrisKLAS]

... and Engravity MCP is not intended for the FBPT.

I have Engravity's MCP, and I love it. It's dead-on accurate to a real 737NG MCP, and even the (brushed metal) knobs have the same look and feel as those in the NG sim I used to fly at Alteon in LGB.

Since you seem to dislike the products from these companies so much, maybe you'd like to tell us your suggested alternative?

[ran56]

Always got fast and efficient help from FDS, and I am very far from being a major customer.

Jack

Same here.

[Matt Olieman]

I have Engravity's EFIS/FCU Best Ever.

I've lost touch with FDS so I can't comment on their product, although I've heard wonderful things about them.

Matt Olieman

[fly_ebos]

I can only comment on Fly Engravity. Have their 737 CDU for almost 3 years and still working without a glitch. Only this week got the pro MCP and EFIS.

I ordered it end of June and got offered the choice of either straight away delivery or waiting a couple of weeks for the latest batch with enhanced backlightening.

I thought it was great to get the choice!

[sweker]

Hmmmmm

Flightdeck Solutions has won several Boeing contracts! Yes, the same Boeing that manufactures the 737. This should indicate their quality and position in the marketplace!

Cheers, Steve

[Kitsok]

Since you seem to dislike the products from these companies so much, maybe you'd like to tell us your suggested alternative?

Firstly, I like electronix and soft from Engravity and enclosure from the Boeing (FDS). So it's not correct to say that I dislike both products.

Regarding the alternative - now (at the end of the exрibition that Peter and Ivar both now about) I think the good idea is just to waste out all the TekWorks I/O boards from the(allmost not at all working but good looking) FDS MCP and re-solder everything to the good-working (but not so realistic looking) Engravity MCP.

To be honest, because I am both an electronix and software developer(and, actually I earn money as an project manager for the 4 MUSD SW project), I really appreciate Engravity way of development and marketing, not FDSs' one. That was my own IMHO, please note this.

Today at the show we had ~40 flights and all of them - without the MCP (from the FDS). Just because the games with the A/T switch leads to the mallfunction of the whole plane (please note, based mainly on the TekWorks/FDS SYS I/O boards) due to terrible wiring inside the MCP and really high currents through the A/T lock circuit.

Advice to the FDS: If you selling the multy-k$ product - don't save on 50C ferrite coil. I'm sure you'll not get the advice, but that's up to you.

Guys, what are we talking about? If you're going to get real experience - welcome. If you're going to warm me up - I have A LOT to tell about FDS, so, Peter, better stop.

[Jackpilot]

Guys, what are we talking about? If you're going to get real experience - welcome. If you're going to warm me up - I have A LOT to tell about FDS, so, Peter, better stop.



Nobody has to warm you up..

You are doing a nice job at it by yourself.

BTW, just in case you don't get it, all of us here know what they are talking about!

Period.

[dnoize]

I wanted to stay away from this thread, but......:


the good-working (but not so realistic looking) Engravity MCP.

Uhmm, ok, lets see:

real one:

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/glare-ng-new.jpg


fly engravity one:



http://home.casema.nl/pago/MCP_001.jpg




again real mcp (klm)



http://members.casema.nl/pago/realmcp.jpg




and again Engravity MCP



http://home.casema.nl/pago/mcppro_det_wb003.jpg




real EFIS:


http://members.casema.nl/pago/realefis.jpg




FLYengravity EFIS:


http://www.cpflight.com/sito/news/efispro0.jpg


http://home.casema.nl/pago/efispro2.jpg





So whats not so realistic about it ? correct knobs, bezels around the display windows, functional dual concentrics, solenoid autothrottle disconnect, etc.

Sure, it doesnt have the 400 $ rotary encoders and solenoid the real one has. We can make that for you, but ofcourse you would have to pay 4000 euros instead of 999,-.

Incorrect colours ?
Based on what? you only have the MCP and EFIS.
I have said this thousand times allready on this forum: there is NO boeing grey. Ive been in brand new NG's and they had different shades of grey on the MIP and pedestal.


Ivar allready showed us how great the FDS trainer looked. Most of us would love to have that at home.
Also i've heard only good reviews about the SYS boards. So based on your experience with one switch there all is bad (which is i believe a non stock item ?)


Maybe your standards have been set too high ?

Take a look here: http://www.cae.com/en/sim.products/cae.7000.series.asp

Top notch, all original parts used (honeywell, collins, boeing)

Be prepared 20 million dollars though.....


Stef





.

[Kitsok]

Stef,


Incorrect colours ?
Based on what?

Based on the words of the lines pilots and their trainers. There are no green digits in a Boeing MCP, agree?



you only have the MCP and EFIS.

I'm not sure I've 100% understand you here, but no, we don't have MCP&EFIS only, we have 99% of the cabin.



Also i've heard only good reviews about the SYS boards. So based on your experience with one switch there all is bad (which is i believe a non stock item ?)


I've found this recently and had no time to investigate it deeply, so it's my supposition, that because there is a bug in the FDS Glare driver, the solenoid logics is inverted, so when you move the A/T switch up, it's not fixed there, but it's only an issue. The problem is - when you switch it on (armed) - there is a really big current surge through the solenoid that leads to the SYS interface boards reset. Probably they are affected by surge on the digital input pins, I had this in one of my early I/O controller board design.

It looks like this - the cabin is ready to the take-off, you toggle the A/T switch and after that "three greens" go out, some lams on the overhead are going in and out, after short time (usually) it gets OK. I've said "usually" because at least twice I've found that hydrolics mallfunctioned after this, so we had to go from dark and cold again.

By themselves - SYS boards are OK, I like them but in the next project I think we'll have to think about bus-connected IO controllers, 26 USB devices in the cockpit is too much :)



Maybe your standards have been set too high ?


Well, the standards we've set are high, that is correct. But I don't see a connection between our high standards and the vendors' carelessness in the development and production.

[Matt Olieman]

Seems this is going on just for the sake of argument. Too bad, I thought some good points were made. Would of welcomed FDS pics too.

Somewhere along the line this topic has to stop. We all know Engravity and FDS has good products. I have my preferences and you (anybody else) have yours. Let's accept that and be final with it.

If you're not satisfied what a vendor has to offer, build it yourself, many builders have done that. :) :) :)

Matt Olieman

[dnoize]

Stef,

Based on the words of the lines pilots and their trainers. There are no green digits in a Boeing MCP, agree?

Agree, but neither does engravity's. They are white (see picture above). Appears blueish because of filters.
The real aircraft doesnt have 7-seg led digits at all, but lcs's with amberish or blue-ish backlight. ( airline option).

The status annunciation of the pushbuttons is green. At least with the ones used by KLM.

But to degrade the entire product to a 'toy' just because of color of digits ?



I'm not sure I've 100% understand you here, but no, we don't have MCP&EFIS only, we have 99% of the cabin.

I was referring to the engravity parts ;-)


I've found this recently and had no time to investigate it deeply, so it's my supposition, that because there is a bug in the FDS Glare driver, the solenoid logics is inverted, so when you move the A/T switch up, it's not fixed there, but it's only an issue. The problem is - when you switch it on (armed) - there is a really big current surge through the solenoid
that is unfortunate. But i'm sure this could be worked out? I believe the FDS stock MCP does not have a solenoid ? So this is a non stock item? Im sure this could have been worked out ?


Well, the standards we've set are high, that is correct. But I don't see a connection between our high standards and the vendors' carelessness in the development and production.
what i was trying to say that there is a difference between real parts that cost millions and budget sims that cost 100K

[Melnato]

Thank you Stef...totally agree...been biting my tongue too(hard).

Come on now...what do people expect for 0.01% of the cost of a CAE FFS...yes 1/100 of $20,000,000!!!
(that's my guess as to the value of the FBT in question of course).

A REAL MCP probably costs the same as Mr Kitsok's trainer...get a reality check.

I have photos of FDS's "new" MCP...its beautiful. It hasn't been officially released so Im in no position to upload pictures here. (gee I would too though)
So there was a bug in the A?T solenoid switch, that was sent out against all odds to meet the customers EXPO deadline...why wasn't that mentioned...? It will be fixed.

Everybody knows Im an FDS man...but I never rubbish other companies...never. Every vendor had there place in this world, and thats really cool.

Matt, I respect you and this Forum, I ...we... all get a lot out of Mycockpit...but I really think you should have stopped this public bashing earlier.

A lot can be said for Kitsoks maturity...or lack of it...

If FDS and Engravity made 100% real fidelity products...they would be called CAE and Thales...!!!:p...
Thank God theyre not quite there yet...because we would be flying with a CH Yoke and a 19"LCD screen....again.

Nat

[Matt Olieman]

Nat I agree, I should of stopped this a long time ago. My apologies.

THREAD CLOSED

Matt Olieman