SimAvionics going up in price :-(

[HondaCop]

As stated on SimAvionics homepage:

Introductory Pricing
Ends
15th August 2009
New pricing structure will be announced shortly


Project Magenta is out of most people's price range and now SimAvionics is more likely than not going to be as well. I have been saving up nickels and dimes in order to purchase the SimAvionics package but I sure am not going to have the $420+ USD needed to buy the package before August 15th.

This means that I will have to look into Flight Deck Software instead, since they are priced as SimAvionics currently is.

Before we know it, avionics packages are going to be way beyonds most people's means, thus making it almost impossible to build a nice quality home cockpit. :-(

[makoy]

Dam :cry:
I was also thinking to get sim-avionics, but i dont even have nice computer yet.I think many other also start to look some other option.
Bad for them i think.

Marco

[Jackpilot]

Just a comment, nothing to do with you E, just that your post makes me think about the problem..
Cost of things is relative . Very often the perception of dearness is linked to the real need we have of a product (or service).
A new set of tires at $500 is OK , A glass cockpit is not! We need the tires, we can live without the GC. That one is easy.
It is getting more complicated when the choice revolves around a new ultra thin cell phone, the latest game cube for the kids, a bigger TV, a better sofa, etc.
A lot of money is spent today on techno gadgets which are carefully marketed as "musts" but without which we can easily survive
Besides that we must remember that people usually put a product on the market to make money, rarely to loose some, the examples of generous people who "donated" their time and knowledge are many in our hobby . Enrico started PM as a sideline, probably just breaking even for the time he spent on it, at that stage, especially as the product was successful, he had to invest, get help and make it a full time job or quit the whole thing.
We have to remember that we are fortunate enough, thanks to these enthusiastic people to have access for a few hundred $ to softwares that Boeing, Airbus or the like paid tens if not hundreds of thousands odd dollars. That we can nearly replicate multi million dollars machines at a micro fraction of the cost. Thanks to people like PM, sim Avionics, Flightdeck Soft etc....for the price of a set of tires!!!
Again, just my 2¢

[jeehell]

And yet you can buy the LevelD B767 with almost all systems modeled for around $50. How come those people at leveld can make a living selling their stuff 10 times cheaper than those at PM & Co who need to increase their prices every few months??

I understand that cockpit building is a niche, but this argument shouldn't allow people to take advantage of an almost non competitive market. The position of PM in my view is what I think American law call a trust.

Anyway, we all have the choice to buy or not in the end, I chose not to buy ;)

[BlackWidow]

I donk know how to write code so who am i to say that a ceartain product should be increased or even decreased in price. I own a small buisness and I do know that there are many small and sometimes big costs that affect how I might charge someone for a particular job. The one thing I dont get when it comes to raising the price, is raising the price on an unfinished product.

Mike G

[jongas]

I agree with Mike regarding upping the cost of an unfinished product.

I bought Sim Avionics 6months ago, whilst I understood that full functionallity was not quite there - however it did not really state how unfinished it actually was. Basic flying functions were simply not there.

The guys there are very good and are working very hard, however when I purchased the 737 package, it really should not have been on sale.

Admittedly the recent beta versions are a MASSIVE step forward, however with any of these, I am yet to complete a flight without issue.

With the cost of a licence renewal increasing too, should the product remain incomplete, I may consider the move to FDS

That is something that, in frustration, I have regretted not doing everytime I get a 'floating point error' or my autopilot will not disconnect 1 mile from touchdown, or my FMC pages are all muddled...etc etc.:mad::razz:

As mentioned below this is a business, which needs to meet its costs - and I do believe that the rise is a result of the extra hours Mark and the team are undoubtedly putting in, and will in time show in the final result.

My problem is that, on a very small budget, this was one of my biggest purchases, and I think I purchased at the wrong time in the products life as the product has not, and is not where I needed it....yet

[W9XE/Project777]

When I saw the post yesterday it reminded me of 2 years or so ago with Project Magenta. An announcement was made for a big price increase and I needed to make a decision to buy it before the increase or wait. I decided to take a plunge and buy it before the price increased. I also new it was a 737 package with tweaks for the 777. I knew it would be some time before 777 panels would be on the market. I thought they would have been out sooner but still waiting.

Now along comes Sim-Avionics. Looks like they have a better software package with the 777 over PM. After some research of Sim-Avionics users I find it’s a highly recommended package over PM. So the plan was to write off the $1500.00USD for PM and when I finally am able to get panels buy Sim-Avionics package. Now I am at the software crossroads again. Do I save some money and purchase it early while still waiting on panels or wait.

Another issue paying for something not finished. Now the above posting on this I am not sure is more geared to the 737 package rather than the 777.

I would like to see post from the 777 registered owners of the software to weigh in on this. Do you recommend waiting or buy before the price increase? I think I will wait to here your recommendations to make my decision.

[jongas]

When I saw the post yesterday it reminded me of 2 years or so ago with Project Magenta. An announcement was made for a big price increase and I needed to make a decision to buy it before the increase or wait. I decided to take a plunge and buy it before the price increased. I also new it was a 737 package with tweaks for the 777. I knew it would be some time before 777 panels would be on the market. I thought they would have been out sooner but still waiting.

Now along comes Sim-Avionics. Looks like they have a better software package with the 777 over PM. After some research of Sim-Avionics users I find it’s a highly recommended package over PM. So the plan was to write off the $1500.00USD for PM and when I finally am able to get panels buy Sim-Avionics package. Now I am at the software crossroads again. Do I save some money and purchase it early while still waiting on panels or wait.

Another issue paying for something not finished. Now the above posting on this I am not sure is more geared to the 737 package rather than the 777.

I would like to see post from the 777 registered owners of the software to weigh in on this. Do you recommend waiting or buy before the price increase? I think I will wait to here your recommendations to make my decision.

Although a 737 user, I have spoken to a few 777 S-A users both via Mycockpit and others.

The response seems to be very good - Sim Avionics was designed for the 777 and the '37 package is an adatption of the work already completed for the '77.

Try the demo, its for the 777 and gives full function but in a restricted area.

I am sure some of the '77 users will be here to share their experiences directly with you soon.

[sgaert]

Hi,
i´m a B777 and B737 Captain User.
Yes, it isn´t finished, but my cockpit also not finished.
With the actual 1.063 Version i have only 2 big problems and some little.
The big you can see on the offical ToDo list (Hold and VNav des.).
My little problems are some strange reaction and strange FSUIPC handling.

Stefan

[jmig]

As stated on SimAvionics homepage:

Introductory Pricing
Ends
15th August 2009
New pricing structure will be announced shortly


Project Magenta is out of most people's price range and now SimAvionics is more likely than not going to be as well. I have been saving up nickels and dimes in order to purchase the SimAvionics package but I sure am not going to have the $420+ USD needed to buy the package before August 15th.

This means that I will have to look into Flight Deck Software instead, since they are priced as SimAvionics currently is.

Before we know it, avionics packages are going to be way beyonds most people's means, thus making it almost impossible to build a nice quality home cockpit. :-(

Have you looked into FSPanels http://cockpitsolutions.com/ ?

While not PM is provides the basics and is cheap, around $50 USD. You can even try it for 15 mins or so at a time unregistered.

I used it in my T-38 cockpit. It worked well.

[HondaCop]

Well folks, I bit the bullet! :p I have purchased a Full Edition version of Sim-Avionics. Now I can just concentrate on building my sim, instead of debating over and over what avionics package I should get.

Basically, it was between PM and Sim-Avionics. I do have to say that PM were going to be generous enough to offer me a payment plan spread over 3 months and even a 25% discount. But even with such incentives, I still couldn't justify the hefty amount of money I would have to put into it.

With Sim-Avionics, I am getting a VERY LARGE suite at a much lower price than PM, even after applying the 25% discount offered. And seeing how many users are going more towards the SA side, I guess it was my best route to take.

Now, time to start programming in SIOC and get this baby synced with my hardware! :-) Thanks for all the help, guys. ;)

[dnoize]

And yet you can buy the LevelD B767 with almost all systems modeled for around $50. How come those people at leveld can make a living selling their stuff 10 times cheaper than those at PM & Co who need to increase their prices every few months??


easy, the level-d 767 is more or less a one man show (wade) who does it next to his regular job (and i think the publisher gets most of the money).

Furthermore its a mass product that sold thousands of copies in just the first months.

To compare, i believe the pmdg 747/400 sold over 20.000 copies in the first month.

PM has to employ 3 people. Full time for enrico and i believe he not even sold 2000 copies in the 8 years he exists... Most of these copies were back from the 100-400 dollar times.

trust me....nobody is getting rich there.......



I understand that cockpit building is a niche, but this argument shouldn't allow people to take advantage of an almost non competitive market. The position of PM in my view is what I think American law call a trust.

no trust here....theres plenty of alternatives: sim avionics, flightdecksoftware (still unfinished too, but with excellent support and worth every penny tmho), look at what wizzards like Ian do with pmdg, theres hoppies excellent work for the aerowinx Precision simulator (which will be relaunched in the future btw) and there is many great people offering software in the free domain, like you do yourself ! (thanks for that)


Anyway, we all have the choice to buy or not in the end, I chose not to buy ;)

exactly my point :-)


Stef





.

[HondaCop]

PM has to employ 3 people. Full time for enrico and i believe he not even sold 2000 copies in the 8 years he exists... Most of these copies were back from the 100-400 dollar times.


Here is my question though. If the Level-D 767 was priced at $1,200 USD. How many copies you think they would have sold in the first month? I am quite sure that it will not be in the thousands.

I honestly believe that if PM would have priced their product to compete with addons such as the Level-D and PMDG, they would be making a killing. I am not saying that they should sell it for $60 USD, but even at $200 USD, it would sell like hot bread.

Let's look at some hypothetical numbers. You say that PM has not sold 2,000 copies in 8 years. Ok, let's say they have indeed sold 2,000 copies and since they started out much cheaper than current prices, lets meet at the middle and say that they have sold 2,000 copies at $800 USD.

2,000 x 800 = $1.6 million USD

Now, lets say that they targeted the same people that go out and purchase addons such as the Level-D/PMDG and priced it at $200 USD.

20,000 x 200 = $4.0 million USD

Yes, even at $200, it is more expensive than the Level-D/PMDG, but considering the quality of PM and what can be accomplished with it, I don't see why PM wouldn't be able to capture the same market as Level-D/PMDG.

Another prime example of this is the videocard market. The biggest earnings for nVidia/ATI, aren't the high-end videocard sales. It's the mainstream, middle of the road videocards that yield the biggest profits.

[dnoize]

Here is my question though. If the Level-D 767 was priced at $1,200 USD. How many copies you think they would have sold in the first month? I am quite sure that it will not be in the thousands.


probably none :-)



I honestly believe that if PM would have priced their product to compete with addons such as the Level-D and PMDG, they would be making a killing. I am not saying that they should sell it for $60 USD, but even at $200 USD, it would sell like hot bread.



No it wouldnt.

In the early days it was less than 200 $ and it still didnt sell thousands. Even worse: in the early days at the low prices people refused to pay anything for it, spreading key generators on the net.

And even with the low prices, it took PM years to build the 2000 user base.

Please rembember that this is the job for 3 people. You want to be paid for your work dont you ? If PM had not raised the prices it just wouldnt be worthwile anymore and maybe PM would not exist anymore !

And it wouldnt sell like hot bread for another reason. There are MILLIONS of desktop simmers. Thats level-d'/flight1 primairily target.

How many home sim builders are there ? 5 years ago maybe a couple of hundred worldwide.
Now maybe a couple of thousand. I think most cockpit builders come visit this forum. This is the place to be for anyone who builds.
This forum has 6000 members. Maybe half of them are active builders.
lets say its 5000 builders worldwide....of which most of the 'old timers' allready own PM from back in the old days.

Half of your market will even think 400$ is too much. (like 5 years ago, because this discussion is as old as pm is).
They will go for a budget sim with the level-d and its sdk, or PMDG with work arounds, and maybe the next pmdg 737 will have a sdk too.

So lets say you have a market of 2 or 3000 people......
and this market has to be shared with sim-avionics, flightdecksoftware, etc.

Like i said in my previous post, nobody is getting rich here.


If it truly was a market of tens of thousands, they could and would drop the price.....but its not the case.

When sim-avionics and flightdecksoftware released their software, everybody said "now pm will have to drop their price, finally competition is there" .....
But we see the oppsite happening.....competition will have to raise their price too if they want to make a living and want to offer proper support.

Sim-avionics announced its price raise on forehand. I'm sure they have valid reasons for that. I'm even more sure that "getting rich" is not one of those reasons.

imagine all the work involved in developing, offering support (trust me, thats the biggest cost and time consuming factor), etc.
I know some of these developers personally and believe me....its hard work, with long days of coding.

I'm not saying PM is perfect. Its far from perfect.....but it IS what enabled many of us, YEARS AGO, to make our sims come alive.

Is it expensive ? Yes its alot of money.
People are complaining now when its 1000 $
They were also complaining when its was 600 $
And also when it was 400$
And were even pirating it in the early days when it was even cheaper.

And in the same breath, some of them order for 10000$ of dollars in hardware......

I'm not saying you HAVE to buy PM. you can also go for one of the alternatives mentioned in my post above.

Its worth whatever its worth to you.
If you think you need it and you can afford it, then you buy it.
If you think you need it, but cant afford it, then you look for an alternative.

I love ferrari's.....cant afford them....so i drive another car....but i still love ferrari's



Let's look at some hypothetical numbers. You say that PM has not sold 2,000 copies in 8 years. Ok, let's say they have indeed sold 2,000 copies and since they started out much cheaper than current prices, lets meet at the middle and say that they have sold 2,000 copies at $800 USD.



much much less than 800 average, not taking into account the commercial licences....i dont know how many commercial licences they sold.




2,000 x 800 = $1.6 million USD
Now, lets say that they targeted the same people that go out and purchase addons such as the Level-D/PMDG and priced it at $200 USD.

20,000 x 200 = $4.0 million USD

Yes, even at $200, it is more expensive than the Level-D/PMDG, but considering the quality of PM and what can be accomplished with it, I don't see why PM wouldn't be able to capture the same market as Level-D/PMDG.



simply because there are not as many cockpit builders. There are NO 20.000 cockpit builders.

PMDG and Flight1 sell these numbers of copies in just a few months. PM and competition wouldnt sell it in years and they have to share a much smaller market.





Another prime example of this is the videocard market. The biggest earnings for nVidia/ATI, aren't the high-end videocard sales. It's the mainstream, middle of the road videocards that yield the biggest profits.



especially when you know that the cost of manufacturing of the mainstream gpu's is just a few dollars. while a complete card costs just a few tenners....now see how the profit is made. What you pay for is the development costs of the high end cards....not the hardware...in a year they will be as cheap as todays budget cards.



when there is a high demand, you can lower the price (see how a 22 inch tft is cheaper than a 10 inch ;-) .


There simply isnt high enough demand to release software like pm at 200$, employ 3 people, have a solid support team and survive......


just my 2 cents.......maybe i see it all wrong......


Stef



.

[W9XE/Project777]

Well I took the plung. In made the order to Sim-Avionics for the Full B777 package. My cost with the exchange rate was $507.11 USD.

I was able to get the test to work so I should be good. I have PM as well with the full Boeing Suite at $1500.00. I will use the PM Instructor Station so at least the full purchase price is not lost.

Will be looking forward in getting panels and actually building something I can use the software on.

[mounty]

Hi,

I just gotta toss my 10 cents in. Neither product is finished. PM has been on the market for a number of years and they still have problems. Sim Avionics is not yet completed. As some of you have remarked above, there are options such as Level D 767.

I personally think it is an exhorbitant price to pay for a piece of software that still is incomplete. There are guys out there who are making great progress with PMDG which has a better logic system that PM. Patience is all it takes until someone will be able to produce either a complete working software or an interface that can be used on most aircraft.

While I would like to have a fully integrated cocskpit, I am prepared to wait until there is a better alternative to PM or SA. I have about 80% functionality using FSUIPC and addon hardware whicxh does me for the moment.

Rob

[Bob Reed]

Hi,

I just gotta toss my 10 cents in. Neither product is finished. PM has been on the market for a number of years and they still have problems. Sim Avionics is not yet completed. As some of you have remarked above, there are options such as Level D 767.

I personally think it is an exhorbitant price to pay for a piece of software that still is incomplete. There are guys out there who are making great progress with PMDG which has a better logic system that PM. Patience is all it takes until someone will be able to produce either a complete working software or an interface that can be used on most aircraft.

While I would like to have a fully integrated cocskpit, I am prepared to wait until there is a better alternative to PM or SA. I have about 80% functionality using FSUIPC and addon hardware whicxh does me for the moment.

Rob

We also forget we are comparing Apples to Oranges when we start comparing PM or SA or any of these products to PMDG, Level D767. PM and SA and others work over a network and handle a very complex logic stream. Doing some programing on my own I know this is not an easy task. Level D and PMDG concentrate on 1 model where PM and AS seem to try to do a number. PMDG and Level D ( and I am sure I am missing a few) are not intended to be used over a network so much less coding! They are also designed, for the most part . to be used from a desktop. So take all the logic and graphics goodies and spread that out over a network (this alone is a lot of coding!) and you are not comparing like products. I also agree with above posts the building community is very small and there for very few sales will be made relatively speaking in the life of the product. It is a matter of what you feel you need and what you feel you can do without. There is no one answer to any problem. I know for all the years I have been doing this I have bought and replaced many components of the sim. Panels, computers,monitors ext... I have used PM through out, never replaced it. So start adding up the cost for all the replacement stuff. Looking at it I see my software purchase was one of the more sound or cost effective expenditures of my cockpit.

That is my 2cents......

[ChrisKLAS]

Flying off topic here:

Can someone explain the benefits of SimAvionics over PM, especially as they'd apply to a 737NG pit builder? I saw a few posts in this thread saying SA is believed to be superior in certain areas, but I don't know much about it.

Thanks in advance!

[HondaCop]

I think it would be a good idea to have a SimAvionics forum here at Mycockpit.org. It's gut-wrenching waiting for a response at their website. Seeing how much more traffic we have here, I think it would be a good idea.

[sgaert]

Hi,
for me there are 2 big benefits.
1: A compleat Server - Client System with a Server that has all logic. In PM you have to start the MCP if you need the MCP or PMSystems if you need the System Logic. With SA The MCP and Overhead Software are only Panels without own logic controled by the Server Application.

2: You have no Offsets given, you can enter in the clean file all Offsets how you need them. The first month i used the PM Offsets at my overhead.

Stefan

[HondaCop]

Hi,
for me there are 2 big benefits.
1: A compleat Server - Client System with a Server that has all logic. In PM you have to start the MCP if you need the MCP or PMSystems if you need the System Logic. With SA The MCP and Overhead Software are only Panels without own logic controled by the Server Application.

2: You have no Offsets given, you can enter in the clean file all Offsets how you need them. The first month i used the PM Offsets at my overhead.

Stefan

Hi Stefan... Are there any offsets to control the N1 SET and SPD REF inputs? Also, is there any offset to control the FUEL FLOW reset/used switch?

[sgaert]

Hi Stefan... Are there any offsets to control the N1 SET and SPD REF inputs? Also, is there any offset to control the FUEL FLOW reset/used switch?

That are all From the B737 MIP, that isn´t ready. But it will come, ask Mark for a timeline. For me personal are some other funktions are much more importent.

[HondaCop]

That are all From the B737 MIP, that isn´t ready. But it will come, ask Mark for a timeline. For me personal are some other funktions are much more importent.

Well, I think they are all important. ;) I for one am the type of person that likes to finish one thing first before going on to the next. I started building my pit by doing the MIP first. So before I move on to other things such as the EFIS/MCP/OVERHEAD, I would first like to finish the MIP completely.

By the looks of it, I will have to leave my MIP half way completed because half of the MIP functions aren't yet incorporated into SimAvionics. :(

[Bob Reed]

I think it would be a good idea to have a SimAvionics forum here at Mycockpit.org. It's gut-wrenching waiting for a response at their website. Seeing how much more traffic we have here, I think it would be a good idea.

I think this is more up to them then us. BUT... You could start a thread dedicated to them!

[HondaCop]

I think this is more up to them then us. BUT... You could start a thread dedicated to them!

Gotcha! ;)

[Trevor Hale]

Does Simavionics have the Overhead logic implemented?

[sgaert]

Yes.
Captain version or higher.

[shearder]

Hey guys (hey Stefan)

It is a pity that they are pushing prices up. What they are in effect doing is putting the software at a further reach from the "normal" man in the street who wants to build a simpit or someone who is already building a simpit. I am busy getting the electronics together and have finished buidling the other 2 PCs i will be using - they are old but hopefully will do the job.

It makesgood business sense to reduce prices and allow MORE people to buy the product. Yeah Yeah Yeah R&D costs money - but rather be able to sell 500 copies of captain than 50 copies. Yeah profit margin will be lower BUT gross will be higher...

I have some decisions to make on this area yet PM is out (i think - cost) and Sim Avionics are teatering on the edge and I don't really know. For example $199 for me is nearly R2000 bucks. I can buy a new monitor or 4 times the electronics i will be starting with etc etc...

It makes one sit back and say well i wish i was rich so i can fulfill a dream to have a simulator LOL because ultimately it will only be the rich or single that can afford this :cry:

[dvincent]

In that case you can think about a divorce :twisted:

[shearder]

In that case you can think about a divorce :twisted:

LMAO - well i wouldn't go that - hmmmmmmmm on second thought - you may have a valid point and solution!! ;)