View Full Version : Air France No Survivors

Jake 747 400
06-01-2009, 06:26 PM
Im am very sorry to say, here in the uk the news has been on to report, the aircraft has not been found, but it said their will be no survivors.
Very sad.


Matt Olieman
06-01-2009, 07:07 PM
That would be very sad.

This is very strange, I don't know what altitude they were, being struck by lightning, then having electrical failure, which I believe is rare.

When an airplane is hit by lightning, the plane is like a bubble, the electrical charge passes around it or travels over the surface, not penetrating. Normally if an aircraft is hit by lightning, as I just described, it is caused by air to air lightning. Aircrafts do not attract lightning, if hit, the aircraft just happens to be in the path of that bolt.

The other thing that makes the theory of the alleged lightening strike so rare, is the system redundancy in the aircraft. For all systems to fail, at the same time is extremely rare.

Just my thoughts, and therefore I hope the aircraft made a water landing and there are survivors.

Matt Olieman

06-01-2009, 08:46 PM
So do I.....

06-02-2009, 01:39 AM
According to what I've found on the internet, the aircraft was flying at 35.000 ft. This is normally above the weather, however tropical thunderstorms in that area could build up until 50.000 ft.

The crew was experienced, the captain having +11.000 hours, the FO +6.000.

In the mean time we can only hope that they landed on the water and hope that the rescue teams find the Airbus and solve this mistery.


06-02-2009, 02:03 AM
The following information comes from aviation-safety.net.


Date: 01 JUN 2009
Time: ca 00:15
Type: Airbus A330-203
Operator: Air France
Registration: F-GZCP
C/n / msn: 660
First flight: 2005-02-25 (4 years 3 months)
Total airframe hrs: 18870
Engines: 2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Crew: Fatalities: 12 / Occupants: 12
Passengers: Fatalities: 216 / Occupants: 216
Total: Fatalities: 228 / Occupants: 228
Airplane damage: Missing
Location: Atlantic Ocean (Atlantic Ocean)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Rio de Janeiro-Galeao International Airport, RJ (GIG/SBGL), Brazil
Destination airport: Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport (CDG/LFPG), France
Flightnumber: 447
An Air France Airbus A330-200 went missing on transatlantic flight from Rio de Janeiro-Galeao International Airport, RJ (GIG) to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport.
The airplane carried 12 crew members an 216 passengers. Flight AF447 departed at 19:03 local time (May 31) from Rio de Janeiro (GIG).
Last radio contact with the flight was at 01:33 UTC. The crew was in contact with the Atlantic Area Control Centre (CINDACTA III) when the flight reported over the INTOL waypoint, estimating TASIL at 02:20 UTC. INTOL is an RNAV waypoint located in the Atlantic Ocean, 565 km from Natal, Brazil. The TASIL waypoint is located 1228 kilometers from Natal. TASIL is at the border of the Recife FIR and Dakar Oceanic FIR.
At 01:48 UTC the aircraft went out of the radar coverage of CINDACTA III, Fernando de Noronha. Information indicated that the aircraft flew normally at FL350 and a speed of 453 kts.
The aircraft reportedly went through a thunderstorm with strong turbulence at 02:00 UTC. An automated message was delivered by 02:14 UTC indicating a loss of pressurization and failure in the electrical system, the Brazilian Ministry of Defence reported.
A search was initiated by Brazilian authorities at 05:33 UTC.

The airplane has not yet been found; the fatality index is feared, not confirmed.

06-02-2009, 04:34 AM
I believe Matt is correct with his statement on the effects of lightning strikes on an aircraft.

However, there are some positions where a lightning strike can be fatal.
Eg, wing tip fuel vents. (If the A330 has them) and ground power hookups.

Doesn't the average airliner get hit by lightning 4 times every year? Im sure I remember that from somewhere.


06-02-2009, 10:05 AM
I have been struck by lightning couple of times at least 3 times and trust me never have loss our Electrical system... When the lightning hits basically it is diffused by the fuselage and the energy goes out in the wings via the small like sticks that are installed in the wings I simply can't remember the name! Total of 13 per wing in the A=320 plus five on the Tail...
Now I have flown under those types of storms they are very typical in south america and teh caribbean as well as like those you can feel in Florida or flying to Texas... Read a report that the pilot said they went into severe turbulence and that they loss Electrical power trust me an Airbus in Electrical Emergency configuration and in severe Turbulence wouldn't want to be there... Then again If I hear soemthign from our safety department I'll sure post it here... This has been a really sad year for aviation...

06-02-2009, 11:38 AM
Static Discharge Ports is the word your looking for I think Robert? Only thing that confuses me over this is for example the 767 has a bunch of Static discharge ports along the wing but also uses a shielded cable system to make sure lightning is grounded and does not effect the electrical system by blocking an EMP.
Unfortunately im no expert in this I only know how to fly them! But everything to me points to some sort of avionics fire as it just seems to catastrophic and too quick to be an electrical problem.

My thoughts go out to the families though and you never wish to hear or see anything like this happening.

06-02-2009, 12:40 PM
Sounds like they might of have found wreckage,,

My condolences got out to the Family's


06-02-2009, 01:26 PM
STATIC DISCHARGE PORT!! THANKS!!!!! Yes I think you are right it would suggest that if they had an electrical failure a Fire could be very catastrophic and will render the plane unflyable specially the Airbus... They have found some of teh wreckage apparenttly.... THis is really sad!

06-02-2009, 03:46 PM
I whole heartedly disagree alot of us are extremely interested in the nature of crashes or whats happening in aviation on all different levels good and tragic. It is absolutely 100% your perrogative to not open the topic and read it as it is your choice to change channel and watch alternate programming. You say go to airliners.net etc well my point regarding that is its 1 source of info. I for one do not wish to spend hours scouring the internet to find every possible link and source to get a complete picture of the complete picture, howeve having many world wide members here in our hobby affords me the luxury and benefit of the geographical location and diverse search patterns. Alot of ppl here are pilots or members within law enforcement or live in cities in question directly involved etc and because of the large collective source and diversity of visitors and members of the build community we are able to gain many different prospectives, links, sources etc regarding the updates of such situations. I believe that maybe your not viewing this from an unbiased and overall prospective but merely from your own adversity to tragedy and sorrow. On the other hand many of us view it very differently and therefore find it extremely beficial to obtain as much valid and credible source info as possible. So Gary if you feel this strongly a to contact Matt and request such a harsh action be taken I recommend that you merely request any topis of this nature be clearly staed in its title as in most cases it is about the content so you are afforded the respect to allow you to choose to not open said conversation and therefore not be offended and others who wish to participate in this subject can do so.


Matt Olieman
06-02-2009, 05:18 PM
Obviously I moved this thread. I also created a new Category in the forums called "Let's talk about what is in the news"

I'll do what I can, so none of the topics of the news forum be displayed on the home page. I can not change it from appearing when the "New Post" button is pressed.

Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman
06-02-2009, 05:46 PM
I was able to prevent the "NEWS" being shown on the home page. With that being done, I must say; MyCockpit has migrated, particularly in the past year, to an "Aviation Enthusiast" web site. We're becoming more integrated in all aspects of the aviation community, or at least we're trying.

So news like above, as sad as it may be, does draw an interest to our community, including me.

MyCockpit will announce, when a 10 minute shutdown will be held, for a moment of silence to honor the victims of the "Air France Flight 447" crashed.

Matt Olieman

06-02-2009, 05:53 PM
Yup Great solution Matt as I like you value this information to be kept abreast of developements with our aviation world. I think the seperate section is an excellent compromise to respect Gary's request and other's viewpoints that differ from ours :)
10 min silence is nice idea Matt or you could do a 228 seconds 1 for each pax/crew lost 4 min 40 sec just a thought do what you think best my friend you generally always do :)

06-02-2009, 08:18 PM
Static Discharge Ports is the word your looking for I think Robert? Only thing that confuses me over this is for example the 767 has a bunch of Static discharge ports along the wing but also uses a shielded cable system to make sure lightning is grounded and does not effect the electrical system by blocking an EMP.
Unfortunately im no expert in this I only know how to fly them! But everything to me points to some sort of avionics fire as it just seems to catastrophic and too quick to be an electrical problem.

My thoughts go out to the families though and you never wish to hear or see anything like this happening.

Yeah i was taught these were called "Static wicks" when I went through my training but Im sure they probably have different names.


Matt Olieman
06-03-2009, 05:59 AM
Does anyone know the approximate time the plane lost radar contact or assumed crashed?

Matt Olieman

06-03-2009, 01:33 PM
Matt A/C believed lost at 0214Z N3.5777 W30.3744 It left civil radar coverage at 01:48Z at FL350 expected to report next at 02:20Z
ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed
airplane was tracking from waypoint INTOL to waypoint TASIL (entry point into Senegal airspace), positions reports would have put the airplane approximately 450nm northnortheast of the Island of Fernando de Noronha and right in the largest red zone on the infrared weather satellite image by NASA at 02:14Z. Weather Services said, that clouds and severe turbulence reached up to 55000 feet in that area.


06-03-2009, 02:05 PM
Yes Tim Static Wick is the part on the end of the static port the last inch has tethered ends which the lightning leaves the end of the aircraft. Same thing really just some people use port some wick.

I think your idea for a minute per passenger/crew is an excellent idea Tim.

06-03-2009, 02:09 PM
I know this is annoying because it has been changed to suit one group of people but...

I was not aware that there where any new postings on this topic all day because it wasn't showing up on the "Recent Threads". I only found out when I checked my email, plus that only showed the first post after I checked.

Can we either send an email for all replies on "News" threads, or put it back to how it was originally? Better yet a "Recent NEWS Threads" area. That would suit both groups I believe.

OK this is primarily a cockpit builders forum, but as a cockpit builder I want to talk discuss with other people with similar interests on such things. I cant get this kind of detail from my friends so its nice to ask questions and read more detailed discussions.


06-03-2009, 02:32 PM
I whole heartedly agree with you Tom but the problem is that Gary and others with the same concerns feel very offended that this type of material is portrayed in our site in a way that he feels he is subjected to and wants no part of it but would much rather leave it to the news and get on with purely Cockpit building. I do understand his point even though I may not agree with it. So Matt was kind enough to assist with sorting the problem by putting a seperate News section which does tend to seperate things but in retrospect I think as you found Tom is more or less creating abit of confusion after all this site has most certainly evolved,from just building to overall aviation which I think brings a more diverse readership and meets the goals of the executive from a more business point.As one of the most senior members of this forum ( as in one of first members)I have seen its evolution from pretty much day 1 and I think it has turned into one of the most powerful aviation hubs on the internet because it does deal with so many isues and facts.Remember after all not only is this website the vision and passion of a few motivated people in the beginning but is a busines to a degree that requires some revenue to remain active.So its imperative from that stand point to make it as diversley attractive to internet readership traffic as possible. I believe MC staff has done this very effectively.The old anage "you cant please everyone certainly holds true in this case" I suggested that anyone not wanting to view the material simply dont click on the page if they are offended but apparently for Gary that doesnt seem to be an efective solution. I offered then perhaps use a less graphic subject title of our posts relating to tragedies of this nature so as not to offend and still allows rest of us to find the material easily and allow others to avoid it. Any suggestions would be wecome im sure but personally I think my last suggestion is the best answer. However JMO