Am i missing something; Backlighting panels I'm struggling

[Geremy Britton]

I'm investigating the backlighting of panels. I've been everywhere on the internet but i don't want to print bits of paper off several times at high quality because besides it costing a bomb in ink i don't think it looks very good.

I've also researched CNC engraving but this is simply way to expensive to have all the panels in my sim engraved to my spec it can't happen unfortunately.

Similar story with not just buying from the FS supplier.

Besides; i make my own panels anyway. I just want to be able to backlight the panels on my overhead and MIP now i'm moving onto the building of that. I think plexi will be needed so i've been doing some tests. I've stuck some peel letters onto plexi sprayed the panel several times then in theory after removing the sticky letters that will be the only area not sprayed. But didn't work. After several coats for a thick layer to block out light bleed the letters were well and truly embedded into the thick, dry paint so i couldn't get the precision of getting the small letters back off again.

I've investigated this to the max and i just can't come up with a good method that doesn't cost £30 quid a panel. It's bugging me so much, i just keep thinking but to no avail.

Just wondered if you could share some ideas please. What do YOU use for backlighting of your panels, so please share your ideas. 2,000 minds is better than one - right! :)

So please anything at all share it with me, it could develop into something i could use.

And after all backlighting is what makes the sim on a nightflight so i just couldn't resist not having it!


Flood me with some ideas, no matter how wacky. I need a way! ...

[Trevor Hale]

Geremy..

I have visited this extensively, and successfully backlit a bunch of panels. This was before I switched the the 737.

Have a look in the Gallery under Corporate aircraft, and look at my pictures.. I printed each panel in Black and white on my ink jet (Photo shiney paper) and spray adhesive it to 1/4" Plexi.

Then drilled the holes through the plexi, through my paper and inserted my switches. It is cheap and works like a charm..

Not as good as buying laser engraved panels but for me the price was perfect.

Trev

[Geremy Britton]

Yep, i've been through every photo in the gallery of every category (told you i'd looked everywhere ;)) And yeah i think if the worst comes to the worst then that's what i'll have to do.

The only problems there is printing which i can do, but black and white is great if you're doing military panels because they're black but the 737 panels are normally grey and i doubt this will work because obviously grey is a lighter shade. So i would have to use black panels with white lettering spaces to backlight as you've mentioned. I don't know how that would look as the total overhead being a black one instead of grey.

There must be a way round this dilemma.


Thanks for your quick response trev, appreciated.

[Rodney]

Geremy,
From what I see on a real panel is the plexi is white, first coat painted black then the finish coat of grey. The led holes are partially drilled into the plexiglass in stategic locations and I would guess to better judge that would to use some type of template and test before the final coat. Then the finished coat panel gets its lettering and holes done by cnc. That is how I would do it anyway, and will be doing one later (after I build a cnc, so many things to do). Perhaps a less expensive solution would be to use a label printer (Brother PTouch) use white on clear lables, mask them, and paint final coat.

[autocadplease]

Has anyone tried using a "black light"? The light that makes white "glow". Maybe you could make panels using a printer and anything you want illuminated white.
It sure works at the bowling alley!

[Geremy Britton]

Hi rodney, I too have considered making my own CNC machine although i wouldn't know how to get such fine precision for 5mm high letters. and for curvy letters such as 'S' and 'R' on a 2 axis CNC that would be difficult - wouldn't it?

And the labelling idea is a good one... Would this allow for it to be backlit though? This would just apply the white letters which i can do at the moment. But i'm interested in the labeller route .. hm. Thanks!

Keep the ideas coming. See if anyone can better us LOL

[Geremy Britton]

UV! That's an excellent idea. If we went over the white lettering with a UV pen then when the 'black light' is on (Night flight) everything would glow!

Ou, i'll look into that!

Brill! I knew we'd get some good ideas with everything taking a moment to think.
As well as that no plexi needed, no complex milling just pen precision and just 15 bucks on a UV light.

Cheers :)

[Mike.Powell]

Just shooting from the hip...

Use white paper and place luminous paint where you expect text to print. Then print your panel with white letter on colored background. The color then masks the luminous paint to form the glow-in-the-dark lettering.

Here's a source of paint: http://glowinc.com/

I have no idea if this will work, but it seems promising.

[Geremy Britton]

Unfortunately the problem with glow in the dark paint is that it needs time to 'recharge' I think i've discussed this before but as our sims never get lots of light in the day time it can't take in any light to emitt in low light conditions. Therefore the paint wouldn't work as far as i know.

I did actually consider that one, but sadly had to dismiss that idea.
Still working on the UV idea though. I like that one. :)


Thanks everyone, keep ideas coming...

[Rodney]

Hi rodney, I too have considered making my own CNC machine although i wouldn't know how to get such fine precision for 5mm high letters. and for curvy letters such as 'S' and 'R' on a 2 axis CNC that would be difficult - wouldn't it?

X,Y, & Z axis. Course I have no idea how they will turn out as I'm not there yet.


And the labelling idea is a good one... Would this allow for it to be backlit though? This would just apply the white letters which i can do at the moment. But i'm interested in the labeller route .. hm. Thanks!

Keep the ideas coming. See if anyone can better us LOL
What I'm trying to say is have the area where the label would go be a piece of blue painters tape and remove that after the final coat, put you label on and see. I don't know how well it would work, but may be do-able. Maybe black on clear for the label if you use white plexiglass. You could test this on some scrap quickly I would think.

If you use blacklight wouldn't the FAA be searching your pit for the bong?

[RadarBob]

I have done some work on panels which may be of interest:

I looked an original 727 panel and found it was made of clear plexi coated with
layers of white follwed by black then grey.

I measured the paint layers at around 0.1mm each.

I have done a test piece using the same paint format, and then engraving through the grey and black to the white (matt).

The black layer, as well as preventing any bleed acts as a marker and helps to judge the depth of the cut through the grey.

I am using a Gravograph IM3 manual engraver, which when new is around
£2000 - I borrowed this one, but you can pick them up second hand for
reasonable cost I think - I have seen then on ebay for various prices from about £150 - £650.

I imagine a lot of engravers are switching to CNC so there may be a few around at the right price.

You could always sell it on afterwards - A lot of people by them for non-pro use - Engraving medals and trophies for clubs and so on

I haven't actually finished a panel proper yet, but the test piece worked fine,
and I have an 737NG Engine Start in progress - So I'll let you know how it goes.

I imagine getting the paint thickness correct and even will be tricky - And
of course you have to get the engraving exactly right first time

Best Regards,

Rob

[RadarBob]

Another solution to this may come from the signwriting trade:

Signwriters use self adhesive vinyl sheet (made by 3M and the like) for making
back illuminated signs and vehicle logos.

They use CAD cutting machines - A bit like a printer/plotter only with a very fine knife instead of a printhead.

The machine could cut out the panel legend from grey vinyl which could then be stuck onto white acrylic.

One could also quite easily do the two colour (light grey) panels this way.
- Which I haven't yet worked out how to do using the paint and manual engrave method.

Might have to compromise a bit on the colours, but there are a few vinyl makers, so should be able to get one somewhere near.

The vinyl is relatively inexpensive, and if someone (maybe in collaboration with a signwriter) wanted to take this on as a commercial venture and sell sets of panel stickers, then I believe the cost should reduce to only a few
pounds per panel.

I forgot to mention in my previous wrt the manual engrave method:

Gravograph also make a material called Gravoply, which you may be familiar with from industrial type labelling - It is a two colour/two layer material whereby the top colour is engraved through to reveal the lower colour - They make it in a matt grey top layer with white below and in an overall thickness of 0.8mm. I have a sample here which I haven't yet tested, but I believe it will let enough light through to allow backlighting.

The grey is a reasonable approximation to Boeing colours.

Some engraving supplies retailers will also make templates for manual engraving machines to your design - So you could get them made for the leader lines to switches, the circles around them and so on - Around £100 depending on complexity and material (brass/acrylic).

Best Regards,

Rob

[autocadplease]

If you use blacklight wouldn't the FAA be searching your pit for the bong?

LOL
No, but maybe the UV light will help my baldspot grow some hair!

[AndyT]

I thought of using blacklight some time ago and have done a couple of tests.

Make sure the panel is printed with bright white paint for the lettering. Use a long tube UV (black light) which mounts up under the glareshield. Place a mirroe above it so that all the light is directed back down onto your panel.
For best results, do not aim it directly at your panel, aim it at the floor or you will get a blueish glow on the upper half of your MIP.

The whole setup cost me about $40 to build. No holes to drill for backlighting and it also gives me all the cockpit lighting I need for my charts and such. They light up for me. No flashlight needed.

[Efe Cem Elci]

Pics Andy?

[Michael Carter]

I've only built one lighted panel and it's rather primitive. It's still in use though and works fine.

I used clear acrylic sheet and cut two panels of the correct size out of this. I also cut a .009 sheet of white sheet stock plastic the same size. After locating all of the holes and drilling them out through all three pieces I started to route out channels in the back piece of clear acrylic.

The channels hold tiny grain-of-wheat bulbs all wired in parallel and located in front of the lettering. This is pretty delicate work, but not unlike the original panels made by companies such as Spectra-Lux as OEM for Boeing.

The panels are sandwiched together with the white .009 sheet between the two thicker panels.

Where it differs from Boeing panels is in the face of the lightplate. I drew up three full sized panels on the computer and printed two out in black and the third in Boeing Gray. I used a spray adhesive to bond them together and to the front of the panel and tested for light leakage. After painting the edge of the panel it looked fine.

The channels are filled in with an RTV adhesive and leveled so it can be removed to replace any burned out bulbs.

[Geremy Britton]

Hi all, Thanks for all your replies! I have been doing reasearch and decided the suggestion autocadplease put forward to use UV is what i'm going to try next.

On the internet there are some very strong UV reactive paints in cold white and warm yellow. And best of all they don't need to be 'recharged' with daylight as long as the UV light is on the paint will glow. Therefore i can apply this OVER my current white lettering that isn't backlit. In normal light it is invisible but when the UV light is switched on (Nightflight) then the paint will glow OVER the lettering where i have applied it over each letter etc. to give the required effect.

The paint is only around £5 GBP per 300ml bottle and it doesn't require drilling, acrylic, CNC, Printing, or anything. And i can simply add it to the panels i already have also on my pedestal.

Just need 1 or 2 UV lights which i'll be able to grab cheap. They even do UV led's for the smaller areas.

I can't convey my thanks enough for everyones help and support in this, and this has ultimately led to an idea which without you people i would have still been scrathing my head over.

So i'll buy the paint in the next couple of weeks. And test it on some MDF and Clear Acrylic i have spare and i'll see the results. I can't wait!

Of course i'll post pictures, as it might be a new, cheap, revolutionary backlighting method.

My sincere thanks goes out to everyone that has posted. This is why MC.org was made!



Cheers! :-D

[AndyT]

Sorry Efe, That was my older sim which has since been canabalized for the newer one which has now been canabalized for the next newer one.... :roll:

[Geremy Britton]

Right i've been testing. The idea of UV will only be successful on the MIP as if UV rays are free in the sim that means the white projector, screen and my shirt are going to be UV reactive too. So if the rays are directed onto the mip we shoud be okay. The question now stands for the overhead panel.

I've just been having a look through Andy T's tutorial in the downloads section and it looks very inspiring. Though i wouldn't want black boxes around all words and letters.

I've come up with the idea of printing a black version a couple of times onto clear see through plastic (The OHP stuff) And then a grey version on the top. That way we keep the panels grey and just line up the light areas for it to pass through between the 3 sheets. Then of course sticking it onto plexi and mounting.

My question is though. wHat things are people using to backlight. I do have some EL wire though i don't know if that's bright enough for the job.

It's also more difficult because the overhead is obviously very close to the top of the sim roof so there is no long throw distance for light like there could be on the MIP.

So what are people using for this?

Again wacky ideas, thoughs are always welcome to investigate.

Thanks all:) ..........

[Spatate]

http://lumenlab.com/estore/product.php?productid=16274&cat=272&page=1

for all interested in home CNC...

cheap small emough for us... and practical!

[Rodney]

I've come up with the idea of printing a black version a couple of times onto clear see through plastic (The OHP stuff) And then a grey version on the top. That way we keep the panels grey and just line up the light areas for it to pass through between the 3 sheets. Then of course sticking it onto plexi and mounting.

Instead of the OHP stuff, there is a sticky white and clear name tag label full sheet product made by Avery. I found them at Staples. Run them trough your inkjet printer from a bitmap.



My question is though. wHat things are people using to backlight. I do have some EL wire though i don't know if that's bright enough for the job.

I don't know about EL Wire and its lumanicity, but I have used their sheets and they were bright enough. Yet, it is not the way I would do something like that again. It seems that adding LED's would be cheaper and more cost effective. Oh and the inverter for the EL Sheet throws a very high pitched sound.

[Geremy Britton]

oh i'm glad you mentioned the high pitched sound rodney. I thought it was just mine. It's horrible, and very distracting. i got to the point where i had to wrap material tightly around it to shut the thing up!

and thanks for the tip on the clear sticky paper by Avery. I'll buy some for the panels.

I also saw the lit sheets by EL , though they're very expensive even on ebay £25 for an A5 size sheet. I'm thinking that's going to be expensive to do the whole of my overhead.

Need another more cost effective solution i think ..

[Efe Cem Elci]

Not sure about pricing here yet but I'm looking into LED strips as a more convenient method of backlighting.

[stabell]

Hello!
I bought the above mentioned two-layer plastic from GravoGraph, black on the top (very thin) and white below that. The Grey version was not usable, for more than one reason. then I painted the sheets with RAL7011, and sent it to a gentleman who owns a laser engraving machine. I designed the panel myself, in a freeware vector based software called Inkscape. I saved the files in .eps, and he could import it in his laser machine.He then "burned" off my RAL colour, as well as the tiny, black layer, and reveiled the white plastic, and that is backlightable.
I am building an odd kind of sim, which is a mix between a 767 and a 737-500, so it is in the grey RAL colour.
It was not very cheap, I paid about 80 dollars for the plastic, and paid him about 350 dollars for the engraving. But he also cut out all the panel parts, about 35-40 in total.
The point is, this way you can have it exactly the way you want, and it is backlightable, and in the colour you want.
You can look at the end of this thread for pictures of the final results.

http://www.flightsim.no/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436411#Post436411

[mpl330]

Not sure about pricing here yet but I'm looking into LED strips as a more convenient method of backlighting.

LED Strips are easy and quite effective but last time I bought some they did work out quite expensive.... not sure about costs now or other than UK... nice and easy to link all off 1 set of 12v/5v wires - using those and cold cathode tubes...

Cheers
Mike

[RadarBob]

Thanks for relating your experiences with Gravoply stabell - Interested to hear that the method worked for you and that the backlighting was succesful - The result looks very nice.

I had an idea that it would work, but I hadn't heard of anyone who had tried it.

I think that the top layer of Gravoply 2 is about 0.2mm thick, so the text effect is similar to engraving through a thick paint layer. You have to be vey careful with the cutter width and engraving depth when using a mechanical engraver though.

Laser engraving does not come cheap, but it sounds like you got a good deal there.

I would be interested to hear why the grey Gravoply material didn't work for you.

I have used the 1.6mm Black/White Gravoply for my CDU keys glued onto clear acrylic cubes, and the backlighting seemed ok on a test, but I haven't finished it yet - I am in the process of designing the CDU PCB (also using Inkscape), so I will have to see how well the backlighting works when everything is in place.

I suspect that the 0.8mm would have been better in terms of light transfer, but I wasn't aware that they did thinner material at the time.


Best Regards,

Rob

[stabell]

"I would be interested to hear why the grey Gravoply material didn't work for you."

The grey top layer did not block light enough. It turned out that only the black top layer would totally block it. Besides, it was not the right grey colour (well, not critical?), and the third reason was that it only came in a version that was ment to engrave from behind, or something. Or it only came in 1.6mm, I don't remember.
First I thought that I could just buy white, thin plexi, then paint it with the RAL and engrave. But the RAL colour does not block the light entirely.
So after hours ond hours, I found that the 1.2 mm sheets was the only sollution. Black on top. I also decided that I would not solder hundred white LEDs to be able to backlight it, It had to be done with the much cheaper neon lights. And that made 1.2mm the maximum thickness.

[RadarBob]

Many thanks for the info stabell.

I had not considered that the grey would let light through, but I have tried the 0.8mm sample I have here, and as you say, it certainly does.

I think I will stick with the Boeing method. at least for my Engine Start. It's not so much the soldering of the LED's I have trouble with, it's the machining of the acrylic, which takes the time - It would have been easier to use thicker acrylic
because when you drill the blind holes to accept the LED's/lamps, the depth has to be just right - Too shallow and the LED won't clear, too deep and you risk going through the panel. I had the panels cut from 5mm acrylic, but when they turned up they were slightly under. I should have gone for 6mm.

Rob

[Rodney]

Many thanks for the info stabell.
It would have been easier to use thicker acrylic
because when you drill the blind holes to accept the LED's/lamps, the depth has to be just right - Too shallow and the LED won't clear, too deep and you risk going through the panel.

Rob
Rob,
Use a drill press for this. Benefit of straight holes and the slower speed means better depth control. You can even mark the desired depth on the drill bit with tape.

[RadarBob]

Thanks for your thoughts Rodney.

I am using a drill press and setting the depth stop on a piece of scrap first, but the tolerance is pretty tight, and there are a lot of operations to get the counterbores for the illumination around the switches and the blind holes for the LEDs and surface mount resistors.

- Over 80 on the Engine Start as I remember.

Experimented with different type of drill bits (Standard twist drill/Wood bits/Forstner bits) to get the right result - But each type has its own pros and cons:

Forstner bit for example will give a reasonably flat shoulder for the counterbored holes at 22mm dia for reasonable cost, but you have to be wary that the spurs cut deeper than the main blades. Also, they don't cut that well in acrylic so you have to be dead careful of speeds and feeds otherwise they get too hot.

To get flat bottomed blind holes, I had to start with a twist drill and then follow with a milling cutter otherwise with the point angle on a normal twist drill I couldn't get enough width across the hole diameter to allow for the LED plus any error in placing it - But a milling cutter can be quite vicious, and not very forgiving !

Still, now I have found a way to do it that works for me with limited workshop facilities, the next panels should be easier. After all, I did pick one of the more complex panels to start with !

Cheers,

Rob

[richard hutchinson]

Hi folks

Have posted this elsewhere on the forum, but I have used blank Letraset sheet which can be passed through a mono laser. Do your panel design in say Corel Draw, place a back layer of chosen gray, and add lettering and legend in white. The laser can't print white so the lettering can easily be backlit with sharp results. Peel off the backing and carefully apply to white acrylic perspex and not only do you have a fine looking panel but the positions of where to drill (presuming you maked these on the design too)

For any legends say around a knob, use the website "Scaleomatic" which will create the image as a EPS file, which can be imported into Corel and placed into your design. Ensure the grey background is set as the rear layer.

I would suggest putting the letraset through twice to get the density.

The letraset can be bought on ebay - Item no. 190324505070

Hope you find this useful
Regards
Richard