WARNING - Simmotion or Cockpit in Motion

[sevenalvan]

Hello all

I don't do this lightly but I must post a warning of my experiences over nearly 2 years with the purchase of a 3 axis motion base from Cockpit in Motion of the Netherlands, run by Mr Kay Hunze. As you can imagine this cost quite a lot of money.

The product was very, very late in arriving and then would not work. I was returned to Hunze/CIM to be rebuilt and they have had it for nearly 5 months with only lame excuses. Once they received my money their communication was dreadful...they refuse to talk on the phone and only email after repeated messages.

In the meanwhile CIM has morphed in Simmotion and I also note another company called MSESimulation whose products bear an uncanny resemblance to Simmotions....Mr Hunze denied any connection but I found out the website was registered in his name! So I will let you draw your own conclusions.

I am in touch with another CIM/Simmotion customer who has also paid for a motion base a long time ago and received nothing but excuses.

Please, please be very careful with anything to do with Cockpit in Motion, Simmotion (and possibly MSESimulation) and Mr Kay Hunze.

he has taken my money and now my property (my returned base) and have nothing to show for it. If you are in any doubt about dealing with these companies or individuals please get in touch.

Please do not be so trusting as I was as unfortunately there are people out there who make promises they can't deliver and who should not be in business. Do not trust Mr Hunze with 1c of your money!

Please spread the word on these guys to protect others from being conned.

Mark

[dodiano]

Thanks for the warning and hope you get your money back!

Regards,

Roberto

[sevenalvan]

Thanks Roberto, shortly after making this post I heard from Mt Hunze...what a coincidence! He claims they have repaired my motion base and it works but now he wants to go back on his word to ship it back to me at his expense and charge me instead (I paid to ship it to him)....he claims this is because I contacted the Dutch police....what does he expect after 5 months of being ignored. Shame on you Hunze!

[dodiano]

Get a full refund my friend.... You don't want it he won;t ship it at his expense... Get a refund and a Lawyer....

Regards,

[jonnydaz53]

The flight sim world is a small community and most of us class this as home ... Hes playing a dangerous game , customers are hard to find in such an economic climate he should do the right thing before the company name is worthless...

Good Luck

jonny d

Southend On sea

[tomenglish2000]

You should also remind him that if he agreed to ship it back to you at his expense then it was an agreement. Current legal procedings should not affect this. If he continues with such talk I would contact the Dutch police again.

[dnoize]

CIM or Cockpit in Motion has been declared bankrupt on 10-06-2008

Probably after a couple of dutch companies filed a claim after having experienced the same.

the owners from CIM are hopping from one BV (dutch for Ltd.) to another.

more information about the bankrupcy can be found here:

http://www.curatoren.nl/fo/verslag_faillprofiel.php?id=97039

Its in dutch. Its a register that keeps all the bankrupcies in the netherlands in file.

Curator (i dont know it its called the same in english, the person that handles the bankrupcy)
mr. B.R. Kleij
Haulussy The Law Company
www.advocaten.org

Office contacts.
Postbus 21130
3001 AC ROTTERDAM
010-4148614

Rechter-commissaris (judge who declared bankrupcy)
mr. S.S. van Nijen

Rechtbank (court that is taking care of the bankrupcy)
Rechtbank Rotterdam
Postbus 50950
3007 BL Rotterdam
010-2972232


Altough you probably thought CIM was in the town Drachten, according to the chamber of commerce the adress is/was:
COCKPIT IN MOTION B.V.
Maaskade 78 1 hoog,
3071ND, Rotterdam

registration number at the chamber of commerce:
KvK-number: 01110644

a claim can be filed here:
http://www.curatoren.nl/fo/vord_form.php?id=97039

unfortunately again in dutch.

I strongly suggest you contact the curator Mr. B.R. Kleij at the above mentioned law firm to file a claim.

This is not the first time this happens and probably not the last time.

Good Luck.



Stef

(all this information is on personal title. Check the links and the law firm for more details)



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[No Longer Active]

This is why im pretty much put off buying anything from abroad because i just cant trust these type of people and more and more seem to like it, like me i try to buy local or from the UK atleast, atleast if he didnt want to send it at his expense then id blimmin drive down there and get it myself, i was going to say that it would prob be cheaper to hire a van a pick it up yourself and atleast know that your getting it, but then just realised your half way round the world so might be quite tricky!

You really do need a solicitor now or someone in the legal department....

Any solicitors / lawyers in mycockpit.org?


I feel sorry for ya pal, i know what its like to be ripped off big time!

[dodiano]

I would ask for a full re-fund... Don't care if they are in bankrupcy... You won;t have support it might get damaged during shipping and you'll be right where you started!

Regards,

Roberto

[dnoize]

I would ask for a full re-fund... Don't care if they are in bankrupcy...

unfortunately thats not how it works....the platform is purchased from CIM not from mr. Hunze. No matter if he is the owner or the manager or whatever.

So the claim lies legally with CIM.
Hunze is not financially responsible as a manager of CIM unless fraud/misbehaviour can be prooven. Then its possible to put a claim on his private accounts.

More importantly here, is that its possible that the platform might be in the inventory of the bankrupcy. thus it might be liquidated to pay of debts !

Another possibility is that the curator doesnt even know of the existance of the platform. I think mr. Hunze 'forgot' to tell Mark he went bankrupt when he charged another amount of money to ship the platform back. Appearently this just happened now ! Bit weird since CIM is legally bankrupt.
I think we have a possible case of fraud here, if all this turns out true.

Of course we are speculating now....

I think its most important that Mark files a claim with the curator Mr. Kleij via the law firm i mentioned above.

Stef



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[dnoize]

This is why im pretty much put off buying anything from abroad because i just cant trust these type of people and more and more seem to like it, like me i try to buy local or from the UK atleast,

I dont think its possible to NOT buy from abroad if you want to build a full sim. For example not many of the major home sim manufacturers comes from the uk. So for panels, electronics, etc. you often have to be outside of the uk

but thats not the issue here. Most vendors/manufacturers are around for years. Some are sponsors here since the beginning of mycockpit.org. Some of them are in the simbuilding industry before most of us even had heard of 'sim building'

I think its more important that people investigate who they deal with. Especially with such expensive products as a motion platform.
Have you read a review somewhere
Is there a support forum
How do they respond to emails
Google is your best friend: google for problems.
Talk to people who have their products...you cant find any ? question yourself WHY you cant find any.

In 2007 allready a unhappy cim customer who lost almost 100k to CIM posted a warning here. Sadly it got deleted back then.



but then just realised your half way round the world so might be quite tricky!

quite ....


You really do need a solicitor now or someone in the legal department....

totally agree


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[Geremy Britton]

Just reading through this post this is a very extreme case. For all the time i've been in simbuilding i have spoken to hundreds of builders, and traded with many of these (some of which i've barely known a week), and i have not had a problem at all. Everyone in this hobby is generally extremely trustworthy.

I just felt i needed to point out that this is an unusual case and if this is fraud we need to get him closed down - Quickly. Furthermore it's not just the cost of a couple of pints in the pub going down the drain here. We're talking big money, so like what's already been mentioned i would think about getting legal advice.

If people think they can make mugs out of us by exploiting money disloyaly and contrary to common law then they are sorely mistaken because us builders will and DO stick together so if one company is dealing in fraud it won't be an option. They will be dealt with.


Regards..

[No Longer Active]

Ok maybe for a 737 sim or something....you may have to go abroad, but im building a Cessna 182 and you can buy everything for a cessna sim in the UK!

Theres no-way i'd buy a motion platform from abroad, for the money it costs to buy one, im sure there are some more than willing engineers in your own country that would be happy to build you one for the same cost, if not less, and if not better built! (Im sticking-up for British Engineers here!).

Enough said!

Alex

(This was a reply to dnoize's post)

I TOTALY AGREE WITH WHAT 737 GEZ SAID!

[kevinE]

Thanks for the heads up mark

[dnoize]

Theres no-way i'd buy a motion platform from abroad, for the money it costs to buy one, im sure there are some more than willing engineers in your own country that would be happy to build you one for the same cost, if not less, and if not better built! (Im sticking-up for British Engineers here!).



I have flash backs of my Rover falling apart for no appearent reason now ;-)

just kidding ;-)


What will you be using for instruments ? simkits ? seagull ? flight illusion ? All dutch ;-)
but you are right...they have retailers in the uk too .....

but back to topic now.

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[phil.]

does there exist an other motion platform suplier in Europe besides the one in NL ?
Philippe.

[dnoize]

does there exist an other motion platform suplier in Europe besides the one in NL ?
Philippe.

http://www.xesasystems.com/








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[aviaparts]

Allmost, ours is in final endurence testing stage, 3dof industrial servo driven system with motion software especially for flight simulation.
Available aprox march 09.
We will be working with a stock (except for special requests), no prepaiments or whatsoever, fully assembled and tested & plug and play. For weights up to 1 ton.

www.fast-web.be

You will find out here when everything is ready.

[sevenalvan]

Hello everyone, back online after a couple days away and shocked to see how much interest my email generated. Thank you to all of you for your kind words and support.

I suspect CIM was bankrupted by another unhappy customer in the Netherlands and unfortunately Hunze neglected to mention this to me until he received my base back in Holland...in fact he only told me about this recently. He still promised to fix the problem but that was 5 months ago....when I returned it he assured me it would take 6 weeks maximum. He now claims the base is fixed (can I believe him?) but refuses to send it back to his cost as he agreed because after hearing nothing for months and constant refusal to communicate with me I had the nerve to contact the police. The police response was his conduct was not criminal but warranted a civil case which I kind of expected. Anyway I dont want to give him another cent because he is completely untrustworthy. I hope the managers of this forum can make this a sticky so that when he screws someone else via Simmotion and they shut him down he does not just hop again to another shell and start all over again. I agree with the comment that most, in fact the vast majority of flight sim vendors are honest, decent people who are a credit to our hobby but unfortunately for every 1000 there is one rat like Mr Hunze.

Caveat emptor! Anyway unless he sorts this out I am not going to stop spreading the message so people know the risks they are entering into if they plan on dealing with this conman and his companies. Thinking next of creating mirror websites to his in Au so anyone doing a websearch for Simmotion etc will get to hear my experiences. He has caused me so much frustration and angst that I just want to stop him doing it again. I have found another link to MSESimulation which looks suspiciously like a "Hunze sim company" but he denies this...dug a bit deeper and I see the website is registered in his name so maybe he is getting ready to do another hop!

Thanks again for your interest and please warn others not to deal with Hunze or his companies. Would be interested to hear from others who have had experiences with CIM/Simmotion/MSESimulation/Hunze.

Kind regards

Mark

[phil.]

as i see at www.xesasystems.com (http://www.xesasystems.com) they only make such platforms for very small cockpits, but not for example a 737 with an instuctor station behind with a weight of 3.000 kg
Phil.

[dnoize]

as i see at www.xesasystems.com (http://www.xesasystems.com) they only make such platforms for very small cockpits, but not for example a 737 with an instuctor station behind with a weight of 3.000 kg
Phil.

They are working on a 6 DOF platform capable of carying heavy loads like a 737 cockpit



Stef




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[dnoize]

And if you have plenty of money, you can contact MOOG.

Moog-FCS has its headquarters in Nieuw-Vennep, The Netherlands.

MOOG creates the legs and complete motion platforms of many sims in the world.

Many Level-D sims are equipped with MOOG hexapods.

http://www.moog.com/industrial/motionbases/
http://www.moog.com/simulationandtesting/


Stef



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[phil.]

that Moog company indeed seems very nice. i know a 737 simulator in Bruges (Belgium) that works with a motion platform. But i don't know what kind of DOF or from what company this is.
Phil.

[dnoize]

that Moog company indeed seems very nice. i know a 737 simulator in Bruges (Belgium) that works with a motion platform. But i don't know what kind of DOF or from what company this is.
Phil.

I've flown it. Its a 3 DOF and i think its their own (vd Broeck ?) design.

I believ Moog Platforms start at 150.000 euro's. But then you get something thats used in real level C and Level D sims.

Stef




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[phil.]

As it starts at 150.000 then it's more for the professional market, it's not payable for just using as a home simulator. Maybe Xesasystems can work or make a motionplatform for just the things that a client wishes.
The one from Bruges is pretty well made, there must have been someone with very good knowledge of it.
Phil.

[dnoize]

As it starts at 150.000 then it's more for the professional market, it's not payable for just using as a home simulator.

of course. As said. They make level-D platforms.



Maybe Xesasystems can work or make a motionplatform for just the things that a client wishes.

Even their 6 DOF will be heading towards the 100K figure. Inherent to the quality and the base price of the parts they use.


The one from Bruges is pretty well made, there must have been someone with very good knowledge of it.


Its a nice sim and at the price they charge for an hour its unbeatable.

A good motion platform is expensive. you said it has to carry a 737 flightdeck + instructors station. Thats a heavy load. For that you need a heavy platform. I doubt there is a 6 dof with those specs aimed at the home market.

If you want a platform for a home sim, then i suggest to stick to a 3 dof and something smaller. Take a look at one of the many DIY projects out there. And even then you are bound to spend quite some money.


Stef



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[Goldmember]

Do you have a price indication of a 2DOF?

[aviaparts]

Price of a motion platform is totally dependent of the payload and also (but less) on it's dimentions. Not talking about DIY, but platforms with industrial gear go from 20K and up.
The platform in Bruges (VDBroeck) is a 2DOF one.

[npbosch]

perhaps another alternative:

http://www.msesimulation.com/2-axis-motion-systems.php

€ 8000 to 25000 for a 2 dof platform with a payload for 1500 kg

I think a 2 DOF system is more than enough for a full enclosed cockpit.
Anyone experience with the above mentioned manufacturer?

regards

Norbert

[Georgis]

The purpose of this thread was a warning for Simmotion alias Cockpit in Motion. They found a new name now MSE Simulations !!!

So be carefull

[salautom]

motion platforms also: http://www.aviasimtec.nl (http://www.aviasimtec.nl/) (dutch language)

[sevenalvan]

Forget MSE...it's Kay Hunze all over again. He will no doubt set up more front companies in the future. Just remember, don't trust his as far as you can throw one of his useless motion bases. He is a conman.

[sebastiaan]

Carefull!
He is still at it! Promises, promises, all words and no action. Thinks he can get ritch by sitting on his lazy arce. So sit on your money en stay away from mr Kay Hunze, CIM, MSE. He can not be trusted.

[cjellwood]

Maybe Matt Ollieman should remove this thread too as he has just removed my thread regarding Simkits negligence. Is there a rule against reporting bad experience with sim companies on this forum?

Chris