View Full Version : New to IO cards etc
Drewsta
06-27-2008, 06:42 PM
Hey guys, I'm looking at building my sim soon and have been researching for months now on different areas. The part I'm not real clear on yet is adding switched and perhaps rotary knobs to the cockpit. What is the easiest way to connect switches etc to the cockpit? Epic cards, Hagstrom electronics cards and keyboard emulators are all mentioned but I'm not sure what would be the easiest and maybe cheapest way to go? All I am after is a few momentary switches, toggle switches and some knobs to activate ALT select,VS select, Radios, Gps, Lights etc. Rather than buy expensive all in one go flight modules (which are great), I was thinking of displaying radios on a screen and have them operated by rotary knobs etc. I have seen countless different cockpits where this has been used and is probably common knowledge to alot of you these days. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Kennair
06-28-2008, 07:43 AM
Drewsta,
Research, research, research! Then when you've got it all sorted hold your hand over your eyes and point your finger. Where it lands on your choices is the one you should use :)
But seriously, my opening line is true, you can't do enough research. In the end it will come down to what suits your situation and capabilities. If you're only needing momentary contact switches (i.e. not permanent ON switches) then a joystick controller will do fine. But if you want to get serious (and it sounds like you do) then you'll need some sort of custom interface board. For a no fuss buy and install some here swear by Simboards. I went Open Cockpit as they are very cheap but powerful and offered a kit form to build yourself. This saved more money but does depend on your electronics skills. Others use Phidgets which are a bit like Opencockpit hardware I believe. Then there are Hagstrom, BetaInnovations, Epic (not sure whether they've folded now though).
I would start by looking at all the cockpits you can and see what they've used and how they used them, then assess your own electronics capabilities and finally your budget and see what you come up with. That's what everyone else here has done (is still doing!).
Good luck,
Ken.
Hi Drewsta! :) As Ken said you have a lot of choices. You may want to consider on of the inexpensive A/D boards. These board give you anywhere from four to eight analog connections for pots (read joysticks, throttles, etc.) and a series of switch inputs.
Most of them work on a matrices so you will need to solder a diode to each wire coming from the positive side of the switch to stop ghosting, or getting contact from more than one switch at a time.
BetaInnovations' Plasma series are good cards. http://www.betainnovations.com/
Just be aware that Leo doesn't support FSX or FSUIPC.
Leo Bodnar makes several cards that have gotten praise. In fact I just ordered on of his controllor cards to test. He said his cards are supported by FSUIPC. He offers 32 switches and 8 axes.
http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836/
Another easy card to use for hocking up buttons and switches is the USB Axes card by Opencockpits. It offer about 24 switches and 5 axes.
http://www.opencockpits.com
There are keyboard emmenators (sp?) which allow you to hook up switches like on a keyboard. However, I find the axes cards with the A/Ds to be a better deal. You can never have too many axes available.
BTW - Opencockpits does have a USB keyboard card. I have one for an Up Front Control Panel (UFCP) I plan on building someday. I haven't used it yet, however.
I hope this helps.
John
xCav8r
07-02-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm new to cockpit building too, and my head is spinning with all the options for I/O cards out there. I've been researching for a while, but the more I read, the more questions I have. I've been leaning toward the cards from Open Cockpits, but I've also thought of ordering something simpler just to get me started. The cards from Beta Innovations and Leo Bodnar look like they fit that bill. Only, I don't want to regret that I didn't go with something that was going to meet my long term wants better. Perhaps you can offer me some advice?
My ultimate goal is a multi-functional cockpit: multiple planes, multiple games, multiple game-genres. Some of these games have limited support for game controllers, so I'm looking for advice on cards that will give me the flexibility to use any analog input for any game.
Let me give you an example. MechWarrior 3 is a game that only supports a single game controller, and you can't choose the game controller that it uses. When multiple controllers are plugged into the computer, they seem to be ordered in windows by some immutable (vendor) ID, and MechWarrior 3 always uses whatever is at the top of the list. If I end up with a bunch of controller cards managing my analog axes for things like my throttles, pedals, control stick, etc., I won't be able to use all of my stuff for this game.
I've read about different cards (or systems of interlinked cards) supporting more than eight axes, but I always heard that there was a limit imposed by Windows of eight axes per game controller and 16 game controllers total. I assume there is some truth to that, but I don't know if it's dependent on the operating system or that some I/O cards have figured out a work around. FSBus, for example, seems to support 32 analog inputs. This just confuses me.
I guess my ideal situation would be to take all of my controls and present them to the computer as a single controller. This would give me the most flexibility when it comes to supporting different games. Is there something that can do this?
I'm new to cockpit building too, and my head is spinning with all the options for I/O cards out there. I've been researching for a while, but the more I read, the more questions I have. I've been leaning toward the cards from Open Cockpits, but I've also thought of ordering something simpler just to get me started. The cards from Beta Innovations and Leo Bodnar look like they fit that bill. Only, I don't want to regret that I didn't go with something that was going to meet my long term wants better. Perhaps you can offer me some advice?
My ultimate goal is a multi-functional cockpit: multiple planes, multiple games, multiple game-genres. Some of these games have limited support for game controllers, so I'm looking for advice on cards that will give me the flexibility to use any analog input for any game.
Let me give you an example. MechWarrior 3 is a game that only supports a single game controller, and you can't choose the game controller that it uses. When multiple controllers are plugged into the computer, they seem to be ordered in windows by some immutable (vendor) ID, and MechWarrior 3 always uses whatever is at the top of the list. If I end up with a bunch of controller cards managing my analog axes for things like my throttles, pedals, control stick, etc., I won't be able to use all of my stuff for this game.
I've read about different cards (or systems of interlinked cards) supporting more than eight axes, but I always heard that there was a limit imposed by Windows of eight axes per game controller and 16 game controllers total. I assume there is some truth to that, but I don't know if it's dependent on the operating system or that some I/O cards have figured out a work around. FSBus, for example, seems to support 32 analog inputs. This just confuses me.
I guess my ideal situation would be to take all of my controls and present them to the computer as a single controller. This would give me the most flexibility when it comes to supporting different games. Is there something that can do this?
Any of the USA analog cards you mentioned above will work with Windows. If your game recognizes windows game controllers, it will allow these cards to work with analog inputs.
Where you will run into problems is the buttons that control, say the flaps. Different games may use different keyboard combination for flap control. Any I/O card can only use one set of keyboard combinations at a time. A work around is to have a series of config/ini files. You would make and use one config file for each game.
Most I/O cards made for flight sims are optimized for either MSFS and/or X-Plane. Beta Innovations works with Falcon 4 and race car games. This means that some more advanced function of say, MechWarrior may not work through the card, unless MechWarrior provides a program to utialize the card.
If I wanted to make a set up that would cover many games I would use an analog I/O card for my controls (this isn't needed if you use a commercial joystick/throttle/rudders) and a USB keyboard card. This card will allow you to reprogram your non-joystick buttons to imitate keystroke combinations. This is the card where you may want to have several config files.
I hope this helps and doesn't add to the confusion.
Kennair
07-03-2008, 12:17 PM
Hi xCav8r,
Trying to build a system to run many games will always present challenges. It's hard enough just to cater for FS let alone other non-FS games. FSUIPC caters for FS by giving you the ability to setup different controllers for different aircraft. As for catering for games such as MechWarrior, the only controller I know that can present many controls as one is CH. By using their joysticks and throttles combined with their Control Manager the game sees them all as one controller. However this would require that you purchased all CH controls exclusively. Otherwise press MechWarrior developers to provide for more than one joystick.
Ken.
xCav8r
07-06-2008, 10:48 PM
jmig,
Thank you for the reply. I'm a little slow on the uptake here, so please bear with me. I have new questions now. :)
When you say that a card is optimized for a particular type of game, what does that mean? Does it offer more control options than the game itself? Do they not work with games for which they are not optimized?
When you say I/O card, does that include cards that are not recognized as game controllers? Like the USB keyboard card you mentioned...I get the impression that's not a game controller but maybe something like a keyboard. In other words, I can't program it using a generic game profiling program. Is that right?
For maximum flexibility, you recommended an analog card + USB keyboard card. Do you have any idea if there are analog cards that support more than 8 axes? Is something like that even possible in Windows?
Ken,
Thanks for the clarification--especially for the example of FSUIPC.
I'm bummed to hear that only CH Products stuff can do the combining controllers into one. It's actually from my Ch gear where I got that idea.
The example of Mechwarrior was perhaps extreme; it was released in '98, and the original developers (MicroProse) of the particular title I had in mind (Mechwarrior 3) have been sold and bought several times over. They don't exist anymore.
Do you know anything about the 8-axis limitation per controller in Windows?
jmig,
Thank you for the reply. I'm a little slow on the uptake here, so please bear with me. I have new questions now. :)
When you say that a card is optimized for a particular type of game, what does that mean? Does it offer more control options than the game itself? Do they not work with games for which they are not optimized?
When you say I/O card, does that include cards that are not recognized as game controllers? Like the USB keyboard card you mentioned...I get the impression that's not a game controller but maybe something like a keyboard. In other words, I can't program it using a generic game profiling program. Is that right?
For maximum flexibility, you recommended an analog card + USB keyboard card. Do you have any idea if there are analog cards that support more than 8 axes? Is something like that even possible in Windows?
Ken,
Thanks for the clarification--especially for the example of FSUIPC.
I'm bummed to hear that only CH Products stuff can do the combining controllers into one. It's actually from my Ch gear where I got that idea.
The example of Mechwarrior was perhaps extreme; it was released in '98, and the original developers (MicroProse) of the particular title I had in mind (Mechwarrior 3) have been sold and bought several times over. They don't exist anymore.
Do you know anything about the 8-axis limitation per controller in Windows?
The optimization of the card comes from the software. A PIC is a PIC. (Well sort of. LOL ) For instance the Beta Innovations Plasma cards have software that allows them to be easily set to the Falcon 4 key commands. But, they don't support FSX. The Opencockpits cards will support FS9/FSX directly. With FSUIPC you can address directly the FSX offsets thus bypassing FSX.
Bypassing FSX windows control is a good thing. It allows you to have more than 8 axes. FSUIPC allows 16 controllers to be used at once. FSX also have memory lapses. By that I mean FS9/FSX will sometimes rewrite the cfg file erassing all of your key assignments with default. By using the IO card software you can skip FS9/FSX.
I have run more than one gamecontroller in the windows applet. Never tried to use more than 8 axes at once. Maybe one of the other guys knows?
Michael Carter
07-07-2008, 12:03 PM
The USB card from Hagstrom looks very promising. I think it has 108 inputs with no ghosting and treats toggle switches as a momentary so it's no continuously sending a keystroke command.
That's gonna be my next card and I'm rewiring my overhead with it.
xCav8r
07-07-2008, 01:24 PM
I don't mean to be obtuse. I appreciate you helping me out and hope that I haven't tried your patience. Two more questions, if that's okay.
The optimization of the card comes from the software.
So any card will work with any game? It's just that the software won't. Did I get that right?
A PIC is a PIC.
What does PIC stand for?
-------------
The USB card from Hagstrom looks very promising. I think it has 108 inputs with no ghosting and treats toggle switches as a momentary so it's no continuously sending a keystroke command.
What's the advantage of this card over one from Beta Innovations or Leo Bodnar? It seems like a lot more money for the same stuff.
just Google for PIC and you will find the answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller
John, as a former BI customer you seem to have allot of misconceptions about my products so I wish to make some clarifications. ;)
BetaInnovations' Plasma series are good cards. http://www.betainnovations.com/
Just be aware that Leo doesn't support FSX or FSUIPC.
The Plasma series of cards are recognized as standard joysticks in windows and therefore compatible with any sim including FS & FSUIPC. The limitation exists where there are more than 32 digital and 8 analog inputs. For the digital inputs, you would need to use keyboard emulation through the software utility "F4IM" I provide which is not only for Falcon 4.
Most I/O cards made for flight sims are optimized for either MSFS and/or X-Plane. Beta Innovations works with Falcon 4 and race car games. This means that some more advanced function of say, MechWarrior may not work through the card, unless MechWarrior provides a program to utialize the card.
BI cards work with all sims including the MW series either as joystick interfaces or through keyboard emulation. Only the output functions such as those found on the ElectronFlux and Plasma-Lite cards are limited to Falcon 4 and various racing sims. In the case of MW where no output data is available as far as I know, no output card will work in this case.
For instance the Beta Innovations Plasma cards have software that allows them to be easily set to the Falcon 4 key commands. But, they don't support FSX.
The software I provide (F4IM) can be used as a standalone application which supports key commands for use with any sims including FSX. Only the outputs (gauges, LEDs, etc.) are limited to Falcon 4 for now.
I've read about different cards (or systems of interlinked cards) supporting more than eight axes, but I always heard that there was a limit imposed by Windows of eight axes per game controller and 16 game controllers total. I assume there is some truth to that, but I don't know if it's dependent on the operating system or that some I/O cards have figured out a work around. FSBus, for example, seems to support 32 analog inputs. This just confuses me
The joystick API has the 8 axis, 32 joystick, 16 device limitation, DirectX does not. Since most game developers are still old school, they continue to use the API or limit the inputs to 8/32/16 through DX for some reason.
The DX limit is 128 inputs per device and more than 8 analog inputs but I don't recall the exact number. It can also support any number of devices up to the USB system limit of 128.
Of course none of this will help you with MW3 as you're stuck with a single device of 8/32 inputs unless you resort to keyboard emulation for additional inputs.
I used to produce a composite USB card a while back that was essentially 2 joysticks in one with 16 analog and 64 inputs that got around the 8/32 limit imposed by the windows API. However this card would only work if the sim can support more than one device at the same time. Not a problem for most modern sims that can read from multiple cards. I plan to re-release this card again soon.
So any card will work with any game? It's just that the software won't. Did I get that right?
If the card is seen in windows as a joystick interface, then yes it will work in any game but the inputs will be limited to 8/32 so if it has more, those won't be usable. In the case of the Plasma-MM2 with 64 inputs, only the first 32 are recognized in windows. The remaining 32 must use keyboard emulation through F4IM.
What's the advantage of this card over one from Beta Innovations or Leo Bodnar? It seems like a lot more money for the same stuff.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Hagstrom card is seen by windows as a keyboard interface. BI cards are seen as joystick interfaces. Its up to you to choose which card is best suited for your needs based on the features it provides. There are pros and cons to both types of interfaces (keyboard vs joystick) but I believe using a joystick interfaces offers better advantages...but then again, I'm biased. :D
Hi Leo, It is good to see you here. I apologize if I was giving out incorrect information on your products. I have always admired you and liked your products. I would still be a "current" customer, except for this email you sent to me in Dec. 2006.
"Sorry John, but there won't be any FSX support in the foreseeable future. MS completely changed the interfacing method so FSIM would need to be rewritten from scratch. Additionally, there's just no way to survive and earn a living competing with low cost stuff from Open Cockpits and FSBUS. I'm afraid you'll have to look for another IO solution in this case."
That is when and why I went to Opencockpits. You recommended them to me.
I am glad you have returned to the FSX simulator. Your products and your support has always been first rate.
Ah yes, but I was referring to the output functions only. I assumed you understood that the Plasma/Gamma modules will always be FS compatible since they are simple joystick interfaces or use keyboard emulation making them compatible with any application. Those would have been of no use to you for working gauges which is what you were asking me about at the time.
Jeez, you keep email correspondence that goes that far back? :o
Ah yes, but I was referring to the output functions only. I assumed you understood that the Plasma/Gamma modules will always be FS compatible since they are simple joystick interfaces or use keyboard emulation making them compatible with any application. Those would have been of no use to you for working gauges which is what you were asking me about at the time.
Jeez, you keep email correspondence that goes that far back? :o
I think I tried running some switches from your Plasma through FSUIPC and it didn't recognize the card? That would be another reason I thought they didn't work in FSX. Of course, considering I am just a dumb Cajun...it could have been me. :D
I try to use FSUIPC to assign buttons and switches from basic I/O cards. It is so much more adaptable and, it allows you to do things FSX has never heard of before. Besides, FSX has a nasty habit of return all buttons to default for no reason. FSUIPC is more civilized, Guess that is because FSX was produced by Americans and FSUIPC by a Brit. Which, of course, begs the question, where do you Canadians fit into this? ;-)
As far as the email. Only from friends, Leo. And, I consider you to be one. Welcome back to FSX and welcome to MyCockpits.
I think I tried running some switches from your Plasma through FSUIPC and it didn't recognize the card?
If you still need help with that, contact me through email or on my forum. If you see the card in the windows game control panel, then the card is fine and should be recognized by FSUIPC and FS.
Tomlin
07-17-2008, 03:18 PM
The USB card from Hagstrom looks very promising. I think it has 108 inputs with no ghosting and treats toggle switches as a momentary so it's no continuously sending a keystroke command.
That's gonna be my next card and I'm rewiring my overhead with it.
Man, I have been trying to find this card on their site but I cannot for the life of me. Can you provide a link please?
Man, I have been trying to find this card on their site but I cannot for the life of me. Can you provide a link please?
? It is well advertised at the home page of Hagstrom:
http://www.hagstromelectronics.com/
:-)
Nico
Tomlin
07-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Ha! That's funny because this is what I got when I did a google search the first time or two: http://www.sbrilliance.com/hagstrom/products/modules.html
I see my error now.
So, my question about this device is how do we access FSUIPC offsets with its software, and how much of an impact does it have on the network, etc.?
Can someone here with experience with these offer up performance reviews?
Thanks,
Well it generates keystrokes, these keystrokes can be recognised by FSUIPC and you can define in FSUIPC that upon receival it will select one of the FSControls that manipulates offsets... as easy as that ... ;-)
Note that I used to have 2 KE72's 5 years ago. In my opinion you better use real interface systems such as Opencockpits IOcards or FSBUS, or Phidgets or even EPIC.
My 2 cts
Nico
Tomlin
07-17-2008, 07:54 PM
Thanks for your input. I will weigh the options carefully, as I have filled up my SYS3 card and need more inputs to finish the aircraft now.
Thanks,
Tomlin
07-18-2008, 01:45 PM
Well it generates keystrokes, these keystrokes can be recognised by FSUIPC and you can define in FSUIPC that upon receival it will select one of the FSControls that manipulates offsets... as easy as that ... ;-)
Note that I used to have 2 KE72's 5 years ago. In my opinion you better use real interface systems such as Opencockpits IOcards or FSBUS, or Phidgets or even EPIC.
My 2 cts
Nico
Nico, thanks for this reply. 88 of the 108 inputs will be used for my two CDUs and the remainder will be employed for simple commands that dont require complex flight deck interfacing. My SYS3 can handle all the complex items quite well.
I am still looking at Open Cockpits but worry a bit about possible language barriers. However, those cards seem to have gained lots of popularity so maybe it wont be too hard.
Hi Eric,
If you can interface your panel with keys strokes then the Hagstrom is a very good solution. Their service is great. I got a replacement card without costs (overseas) when I had a technical problem with one of the two.
But if you have to (or want to) interface with offsets it is a bit of 'detour' using the Hagstrom with key generation and then key recognition by FSUIPC... that's why I wrote that real interface systems are better suited for that task.
Nico
I am still looking at Open Cockpits but worry a bit about possible language barriers.
Most of the Forums at Opencockpits are in English, they have to because they have sold cards to 63 countries.
Nico