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  1. #11
    500+ This must be a daytime job JBaymore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michelmvd View Post
    In my opinion in this modern world of online communication, you always can find easy a way to be online. All hotels has WIFI etc . So even if you are always on the move, this can't be a problem.
    If you read my earlier posts in this and other PM threads you'll see that I certainly do not think that PM is "the greatest thing since sliced bread". Reading the feedback in many places on the net, I would never even consider buying the software, due to the bugs and the apparent lack of support at this point.

    That being said, in their defense there is a big difference between having access to online communications and having the TIME to actually devote to these communications.

    There is that old saying that, "When you are up to your butt in alligators it is hard to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp." I am guessing the alligators of the REAL business money have taken PM's eye off the low budget hobby swamp.

    I have to assume that the simpit builder side of PM staff's jobs is a very MINOR part of whatever business interests they are pursuing. If they are busy on a $10,000,000 project for a very demanding client, finding time to discuss the fine points of conversions of the current navdata for relatively low priced simulators that are really NOT IMPORTANT (read that as ...... if the navdata is slightly out of date or the waypoint is not there NO ONE DIES) is probably way down on their list of priorities.

    I am guessing that the PM developers keep the PM hobby side alive at this point out of a fondness and "love" for the hobby side of things and the people who are addicted to this craziness....... when it really is rather impractical for them to actually do so. The "love factor" is what likely stops them from just closing the doors to the hobby. My guess is the "miscommunications" are the result of embarrasment at letting the hobby side go so much, letting down the nice group of hobbiests, and not being willing to actually tell the truth about the situation....... which likely is that there is no TIME to adequately take care of the hobby side, and it IS low priority.

    While not communicating with your customers about product problems is a VERY BAD business model to pursue, I am guessing that the hobby side of PM is not really being looked at as a REAL business anymore... but as a "hobby" and a "service to the field". And likely as a bit of an annoyance now.

    YES... PM software is expensive........ but compared to a professional simulator it is actually dirt cheap. There is a REASON those simulators that real pilots certify on are worth MILLIONS. But the hobby users are still demanding that the code THEY get be darn close to the professional offerings and everything be continually updated like the real thing. THAT business model also just doesn't work. Particularly in a low unit sales volume field.

    This is sort of like, "I want Mercedes quality and features ..... but I want to pay for a Kia."

    Should the software basically work? Of course. Will there be bugs. Absoutely (take Windows and Vista, for example. ) How complex and "complete" should the software be compared to the "real thing"? Well...... how much are you willing to PAY? At even $1000 ..... it is CHEAP for the realistic simulation of such aircraft's systems. Remember though... you bought a Kia version of a Mercedes .

    But I know too that it is hard when it is YOUR $1000 to sit back and wait for fixes.

    best,

    .......................john

  2. #12
    300+ Forum Addict NicD's Avatar
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    You might be right John but that does not mean that we should sit back and take the warm, fuzzy, pat the head of the hobbyist crap. Money is money and if you pay for a product then it should work and if not it should be supported till it does. When they sold us software they made this commitment, so any change of heart on their part (if that is indeed the case?) is unacceptable.

    This is not about bells and whistles of professional sims, this is about an aircraft not doing 360s over a fix for no damn reason. Or not having your CDU go spazzo and freeze after entering a simple STAR.

    The folks at PMDG also have a small programming team and they produced a rock-solid CDU and AFDS systems that has stood the test of time. They did this BEFORE they sold any units, so the quality of their product has nothing to do with units sold in comparison to PM.

    If we are to be given "hobbyist" support then all PM software should be made free and open-source to hobbyists. If not, then a reasonable level of professionalism and business-like action is still required by all of us.

    Please... lets not accept that being hobbyists gives any supplier an excuse to be slack.
    Nic D'Alessandro
    737NG builder (Hobart, Australia)
    http://simsation.com.au

  3. #13
    500+ This must be a daytime job JBaymore's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with you about a COMPANY giving support for their product. But what I think is likely happening is that PM as a company that provides HOBBY type product is "not long for the world". Because they seem to no longer be behaving like a company.

    They could be "not long for the world" for one of three reasons:

    • they decide to simply can it themselves
    • their potential customers get totally fed up and stop buying
    • their existing customers pursue "issues" to a level that makes it impossible to continue doing business


    Any one of those has the same eventual outcome.

    The question will be will they release it open source if they decide to dump the project? And while certainly unacceptable, companies go out of business and leave unsupported products strewn all over the place. Fact of life.

    They can't continue to exist and ignore the customer completely. Not if the customers are not willing to take the back seat. So another question also is.... are existing PM users willing to be patient and WAIT for whatever support that PM is ABLE to deliver WITHIN the realities of their current business model?

    If not.... they might have very few choices BUT to dump it. Food for thought.

    best,

    ..................john

  4. #14
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    Route Line / Navigraph

    Hi

    I have replied to Michel directly about this route line problem via e-mail and explained (as he has outlined here) what the main delay seemed to be in resolving it. There is now a line of communication. Beyond that, nothing more can be said as to when it can be resolved. Everyone is aware of the problem.

    The other issues here are related to FSX - we have to find ways to work around them.

    This is all the information I personally have on this topic.

    Regards
    Jonathan Richardson
    Jonathan Richardson

  5. #15
    150+ Forum Groupie michelmvd's Avatar
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    Thanks Jonathan for comfirming my information I gave to the PM community.
    It is very much appriciated to see you guys are watching the forum as this item is a very big concern for a lot of us. PM-support has been so great all over the years, just hoping it can resume that way in the futur too.
    B. Rgds
    Michel

    Btw Did a EBOS-LGAV - EBOS flight last weekend. Even when setting the STAR of both airports in the route at the gate, a major part of my route was lost. (Will send you routedetails so you can check for yourself by separate mail)
    _______________________________________________
    Michel VANDAELE
    msn : michelmvd@hotmail.com
    website B744 : users.telenet.be/michel.vandaele/sim1.htm
    general website : users.telenet.be/michel.vandaele
    my spaces: http://michelmvd.spaces.live.com/
    email : michelmvd@hotmail.com

  6. #16
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    General Comments

    [QUOTE=JBaymore;39262]If you read my earlier posts in this and other PM threads you'll see that I certainly do not think that PM is "the greatest thing since sliced bread". Reading the feedback in many places on the net, I would never even consider buying the software, due to the bugs and the apparent lack of support at this point.

    Hi

    As I am here, I will answer this one, but not get drawn into a long protracted conversation on all this.

    We have always given the highest level of support - e-mails are answered within hours, if not minutes. Bug fixes can sometimes be instant - or take a week or so or longer - it entirely depends on the situation. There are x4 people on the team working 24/7 in various areas, but all receive e-mails and all will answer what they can. There is no lack of support for the software. There is also an extended branch of other people involved and normally this team of people working together is what has brought you the abilities to use this software. It is a team of people who have the best intentions, not a team motivated by profit - I would say quite the opposite. We are not however stupid, you have to keep money rolling in otherwise everything will stop. Private hobby sales are not what keep everything going. There is a model in place, and for the past 7 years it is working.

    >There is that old saying that, "When you are up to your butt in alligators it is hard to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp." I am guessing the alligators of the REAL business money have taken PM's eye off the low budget hobby swamp.

    I would not say take our eye off it, it is simply put in perspective to everything else. One thing we do not have time to do is visit forums all the time unfortunately anymore. That is something from the past, it had to be let go because it takes up too much time, and is a reason we shut the PM forum down.

    >I have to assume that the simpit builder side of PM staff's jobs is a very MINOR part of whatever business interests they are pursuing. If they are busy on a $10,000,000 project for a very demanding client, finding time to discuss the fine points of conversions of the current navdata for relatively low priced simulators that are really NOT IMPORTANT (read that as ...... if the navdata is slightly out of date or the waypoint is not there NO ONE DIES) is probably way down on their list of priorities.

    No, that can't be correct I'm afraid, you use the same software as the professional sector. If you have a problem so do they. The priority level is the same. We do not actively say to ourselves this is a pro or a non-pro customer. Obviously if you are on site working at a pro sim then for those days priority is given because they pay a daily rate. This is not limited only to pro sector - it is limted to time and avialability / cost. Anyone could book PM to be on-site at their sim. Normally it is not necessary unless going through a certification or something very complex and of course having one or two people on site (anywhere in the world) is expensive.

    >My guess is the "miscommunications" are the result of embarrasment at letting the hobby side go so much, letting down the nice group of hobbiests, and not being willing to actually tell the truth about the situation....... which likely is that there is no TIME to adequately take care of the hobby side, and it IS low priority.

    It is simply a matter of being exstremely busy, schedules miss-matching, Richard being away, Enrico being away, when a "window" opened to look at it, no direct communication happened for one reason or another and then the window passed and attention was drawn on other just as urgent things. In no way is it a big thing against the hobby market. Everyone is a customer - everyone has problems at one time or another. The trouble is, it is easy to create a narrow point of view, a small wave, that gets bigger and bigger, but then everyone can't see all the original small waves (hundreds of them) that have been solved, the intense support given to people who do not bother to post all their good points - either because a problem solved is no longer in their minds, or they themselves just don't have time to post. There are x4 of us, we get over fifty e-mails a day, all that can be responded to by respective people are answered. The above does not refer specifically to this post, but to the general worries in this thread.

    >While not communicating with your customers about product problems is a VERY BAD business model to pursue, I am guessing that the hobby side of PM is not really being looked at as a REAL business anymore... but as a "hobby" and a "service to the field". And likely as a bit of an annoyance now.

    We do communicate - we just do not communicate in forums now, it takes too long, is a complete distraction and as I outlined above. It may not be to everyones liking, but we took an active decision to shut down the forum, there was a reason for this, the idea of this forum as discussed with Matt, was to still have a area where people can help each other if they want to. Of course as in any forum you can post whatever you want, I would caution though, most of the time you get a very narrow picture of the truth. The truth is (for example) I am running the same software as you, I sit here with senior training captains (sometimes) and I/we demonstrate full flights without problems and they handle the simulator directly themselves, on the other side, with trainees with 70hrs on a Piper and they get great benifit from the software / simulator as a GC familirsation tool. It is not a situation when they sit there and it is all not working. It works. Of course as far as FSX is concerned, this was a major change for MS, as such it has many factors that are likely to mess things up - so we use FSX for development, not for product demonstrations, what you see outside is the least important thing. It is simply a case of where you set your personal priorities. I don't think we have a single professional customer using FSX for example.

    Lastly, you can not in anyway compare PM to PMDG, we are doing something different. PMDG is a closed system, it has x1 a/c model, on x1 computer and is all running with itself inside MSFS. PM has to connect to whatever you throw at it, it is heavily dependent on the user and the hardware configs (of which there can be many) to work properly. 90% of problems are a direct result of hardware/computer or configuration or even perhaps a faulty pot or switch. If you like, it is industrial software, and the enginneers - you, have to know what you are doing with it because it is open enough to give you all those options that you want / need - what I am saying is it is an entirely different concept to PMDG or the like - which are fantastic in their own right at what they do and achieve. But this concept is different. Yes, there will be problems, what we (you) do here is really very complex, it is not just shove in a CD and go fly, it is based on many factors that are required to work together all at the same time. So, I do not wish to make excuses, only to say that please think about the big picture, not just a few little things that paint such a dark image - the opposite is actually the case.

    Regards
    Jonathan Richardson
    Jonathan Richardson

  7. #17
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    >Btw Did a EBOS-LGAV - EBOS flight last weekend. Even when setting the STAR of both airports in the route at the gate, a major part of my route was lost. (Will send you routedetails so you can check for yourself by separate mail)[/QUOTE]

    - related problems with this route line generation / navigraph should be direct to Enrico it is only something he can look into.

    Regards
    Jonathan Richardson
    Jonathan Richardson

  8. #18
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    >I sit here with senior training captains (sometimes) and I/we demonstrate full flights without problems and they handle the simulator directly themselves

    I was amazed by this reply, what the fellows simmers do wrong that can generate the route going crazy? The PRO insert the STAR in a different way?!
    Also Michel VANDAELE flown a real 744 SIM without problems.

    I'm on ground for a very long time 'cause the CDU is not reliable. The only thing i can do is the old vor to vor navigation or at least use old method for STAR and APP.

    Note that i'm a REAL FROZEN ATPL Pilot.

  9. #19
    150+ Forum Groupie michelmvd's Avatar
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    Hi dcutugno
    Thanks for the kind compliments.
    I flew several real B744 simsessions on a regural base and knows some things about the B744 systems, but I still have to learn a lot. The B744 is such a complex aircraft that even pilots with thousand and thousand of hours still learn every day.

    But this route things are basic handlings, the same for most Boeing aircraft.
    CDU imputs are very flexiable. It must be possible to enter routes, rwy's waypoints, SIDs and STARs, delete them, change them; add items, use DCT's etc, all without a problem. It is just there to help you to reduce workload, not make more problems
    For example, when you rcvd your route via ACARS, its very easy to change later your T/O RWY or landing RWY or preprogrammed SID or STAR without any problems. Afterwards in the DEP/ARR page, all the new possibilities are shown again, so that you easily can enter a new assigned one.
    The real one is very flexiable and if you do something wrong, well you will be noticed. I wished everything else during a simsession goes that smoothly
    It is the interface between pilot and FMC, just as the MCP, used atleast for 80% of the modern flighthandling, so it

    B. rgds
    Michel
    _______________________________________________
    Michel VANDAELE
    msn : michelmvd@hotmail.com
    website B744 : users.telenet.be/michel.vandaele/sim1.htm
    general website : users.telenet.be/michel.vandaele
    my spaces: http://michelmvd.spaces.live.com/
    email : michelmvd@hotmail.com

  10. #20
    25+ Posting Member
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    Jonathan,

    Thank you for taking the time to post a response to the issues raised in the earlier post. It is much appreciated.

    Jon

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