Preview: iFly 737NG Home Cockpit Builder's Edition

[Bug738]

As written in the iFly customer forum there will be a freeware mapping solution called IFlyToFsuipc, which is being developed by a customer. I assume that it is based on the SDK (what else).

Cheers,
Michael

[bagarie]

Thanks for reply Michael,

I'll waiting for that interface

Regards
Arnaldo

[jbucholz]

Michael, while I respect your opinion, I am a bit confused by it and let me post why.

But, correct me if I am wrong, this functionality is also available to every owner of the standard iFly 737 FSX addon. So what the Home Cockpit Builder's Edition adds to this, is the distributed glass cockpit. And since the displays/gauges functionality was obviously already mostly available in the basic product, iFly has mainly added the, admittedly highly efficient, network functionality. But this functionality comes for 465 US$ (with 50 US$ off for a preorder). Ridiculous.

Isn't that what all other cockpit software does? Simply allows you to run an efficient life size simulator over a network? Now, I guess what I'm reading from this quote above is that if iFly had created the interface and not a community member....then you'd be ok with the price? What would then stop a user from using the SDK to make such an interface? What good does an interface do to a user who can't run a full cockpit setup because they have to rely on undocked gauges?

PM and SA (if you were not lucky enough to get the intro prices) are much more expensive, but they bring a complete suite with systems logic and excessive support to connect your cockpit hardware via various interface technologies. Flight Deck Software and ProSim737 are in the same price segment as the iFly solution and they also provide the complete functionality as PM and SA. I assume that the reasons for the high prices (compared to other FS addons) of these products are the high programming efforts combined with the fact that they are only sold in a niche market. And in case of PM and (now also) SA the willingness of the cockpit builders to pay these prices.

I for one was not lucky enough to get in on introductory prices considering I only started building my cockpit this year. None of these software packages that you mentioned come with a flight model or sound package. So, let me use Project Magenta as an example as it was one of the software packages I was looking into:

First, I need glass for the Captain's Side = 639 Euro or in today's market $850.65 U.S. Dollars
Then, I will need the systems for overhead = 319 Euro or $424.65 U.S. Dollars

So, for my cockpit I would need to spend a total of $1,275.30. AND I would have to go search for my own flight model and hope it works with the software, find my own freeware or purchase a 737 sound package. Then, if later down the road I wanted to add an FO side to my pit, I would have to pay an additional $424.65.

Where as iFly's software is $475 for pre-order, $525 after the 14th if I didn't already own the FSX version of the standard edition. I get displays and CDU's for both Captain and FO side, get logic and flight models for not just an 800 model, but 600/700/800/900/BBJ/BBJ2/BBJ3 and whatever models might be coming out with the free feature pack. PLUS a sound package and all I have to do is purchase one product for less than HALF of what it would cost for captain's side only of PM.

So, it then will come down to customer economics. It's more economical for me to spend only $475 and save myself $800 that I could put towards another piece to my pit. I get the same exact stuff as I would with PM....and if I'm wrong please tell me what I would get from software like PM that would be different? Plus, flight models for not just 1 737, but 7 different variations, the ability to customize engine power output, and sound.

So again, I am confused by your statement. Sure, one could look at it that you get all this already with the standard addition. But, couldn't you also get the same stuff with the standard edition that you do with software like PM? As you said, you are the customer and no one is forcing anyone to shell out money they don't feel it's worth. As a customer, I wont be spending $1,200+ on a piece of software that I feel I can get for way less with someone else and get much more out of the complete package.

[brynjames]

Some very interesting points made by both Michael and Jeremy.

The ProSim737 package is also worth comparing as it is likely to be much cheaper: the latest information on their site is that when it goes payware the price is expected to be 300 Euros for a full cockpit suite. Hardware compatibility appears to be excellent, for instance it already includes support for 4 CDUs. The FDS CDU is about 300 Euros cheaper than the Engravity CDU for which the iFly drivers are being developed. 40 Euros for the iFly basic package to get their range of flight models and you would still be 260 Euros ahead of the full iFly solution as currently described.

I'm not trying to denigrate the iFly package, just trying to better understand how it fits into the market at its chosen price point.

Please correct me if I've got any of my "facts" wrong, I'm happy to learn!

--
Bryn

[jbucholz]

Please note that I'm not trying to argue or prove which is better. Honestly, I've never used ProSim simply because I would have to re-script all my SIOC code for my MIP and I really don't want to go through that again. Before iFly came along, I still wasn't considering ProSim, but back and forth between either SA or PM. Now that I have the iFly version, I can say it's the version that works for me and gives me what I'm looking for. Really, I think it's all going to come down to preference. However, given that Flight1 is allowing you to basically try the full version of the software for 30 days and return it if you don't like it.....I'd say what do you have to loose in trying it?

[Bug738]

Jeremy,

when rereading my posting I have to agree that it is probably easy to be confused. Sorry for this. Let's try to clarify.

First, if I would be currently in the situation to select a new software for a 737 NG home cockpit, there would be only three possible choices for me: ProSim737 (for announced 300 € + VAT), Flight Deck Software (for 499 € + VAT), or (surprise, surprise) iFly 737 Cockpit Builder's Edition (for 525 US$ all incl.). And, to be honest, there would be some probability that I would select the iFly solution. Mainly because it is the only solution which integrates a very sophisticated flight model. The true competitor would be ProSim737 because of the extremely easy way to connect it to many different hardware components (especially OC) and the excellent support.

When looking at the most expensive solutions, PM and SA, I have to admit that they are, in my opinion, no real alternatives any more. PM dominated the market for a very long time and they have defined the price levels (because there was simply no real alternative). Meanwhile they run the risk of becoming technically outdated and they are much too expensive. SA was a real nice alternative 2-3 years ago. I purchased the complete suite for both aircraft types at the intro price of about 450 Pounds. Very competitive, good support, innovative features. The acquisition by FDS did not help them, though. The price rised to about 1700 CDN$ without any additional features. And of course, this change of price by FDS was driven by the price level of the PM solution. Why not asking for the money when you can get it.

So, the question remains, why do I complain about the iFly price. Simply because I think that their price is only driven by what the market is currently willing to spend for such a solution, and not by the actual additional value. It is similar to FDS after the SA acquisition. You can get almost all of the needed functionality (how much, about 95% ???) in the base product for 60 US$. And for a small addon which offers the little missing functionality (compared to the base product) they ask for nearly 7 times the base price. That's what I meant by ridiculous. So my complaint is more on the moral side. And I also think that this price policy is quite shortsighted. At the current price only die hard cockpit builders will be willing to buy it. How many are there, and which of these are looking for a new solution? Several dozens, one hundred? But if they would sell it for significantly less, let's say 50-100 US$, probably many more users would think about increasing their simulation setup and performance by running a small network with only one or two additional computers for the displays.

However, if they are adding an ISIS standby, even I am thinking about buying it, but I am for sure a part of the die hard cockpit builders.

Sorry, it became quite long again.

Best regards,
Michael

[Steve Masson]

Hi guys,

I thought I would post here to let you know how and why the iFly Pro was developed. I am not here to justify the price.

Some people in the forum here will know me for my A300 Simulator I created and used to raise funds for Orbis and the Flying Eye Hospital during World flight events. The neck injury that brought about the end of my real world flying ambitions and gave me the chance to build my dream sim has also ended part of that journey. I am no longer able to run events like world flight and manage the sim and that way, when over a year ago I was asked by my friend Steve Halpern to support a new product by a new developer it seemed a great way get back to doing something I loved.

When you look back in these forum you will see initially I was looking at the NG range as something that could be adapted for sim builders with ease, unfortunately it wasn't as simple as that and running with un docked windows was a perfect solution. With this in mind I approached the developer with an idea for what I saw as a new approach to the complete process. Instead of hacking a product or using a default model with gauge package, reverse the process and use a detailed FSX package with all the functionality coming form that package to a set of gauges, which meant everything in the package would be available to the builder. I think when I described my idea he thought I was crazy, but humoured me and between us for 8 months we plugged away and in June I could see we were getting somewhere, so for a moment we will jump forward to the release and what happened at the weekend.

Everyone at the event saw something incredibly simple to use and what looked like the iFly with a set gauges. The complete setup on the flight deck boots in the time it takes to start FSX and select your aircraft. Your comment Michael that the price is crazy because it is just that the iFly and some gauges is on the money as that is exactly what I was hoping to project and incredibly simple looking solution that allows your sim to start and run in the time it takes to start FSX and offers every option in iFly menu including all the models, replacing the one freeware model we are all used to.

Time to take a step back once again. What has been in development for over 12 months, could not be more distant from being simple solution and behind what looks like simple solution is a completely new Program set of gauges that drive the product. The developer humoured me as I am sure he thought I was nuts, when I kept pushing and searching for solutions to the hundreds of issues we faced. We had to forget everything that had gone before and trying things that we had no idea would work, to our amazement we could see eventually we were winning. I told very few people about what Jiangwei and I were doing because it was off the chart, the new style logic we were trying to create and the way it all linked seamlessly together. When we sent the first rough version out to three sim builder I knew, I wasn't sure anyone would get it. Putting together a Scotsman on strong medication and a developer that knew nothing about the trials we all go through trying to get the best out of our sims, I still can't believe we got their. The testers took our basic concept and quickly came up with a host of ideas and by July I could see it may all happen. At this point I handed over a lot of my work load and focused on the project full time and the release on Saturday was the result of our efforts. What I am trying to explain is because it looks simple, is simple to operate, is simple to set up it could not be further away from a simple piece of software. The old one about the swan looking graceful and under the water it is completely different is the closest example.

At the moment using the new interface we have added that will role out across the complete iFly product range we have managed to give sim builder the full iFly a massively improved frame rates, we are removing the need for the mouse and keyboard after selecting your aircraft in FSX and for the first time allowing you to use any of the 7 NG models in the series. I had no control over the fixing of the price point for the aircraft, but asked we should make it as affordable as possible for all users, especially ones like me that have already paid a very heavy price for a different solution. I think £350 for the full version is incredible value for the amount of work and new innovations that are working behind the scenes and as you have spotted made the product look simplicity and almost too simple to be true.

What we haven't released so far is a lot of information on how it should be used. I have suggested using 2 systems, but in reality it will all work for from one good pc. If your system will run the iFly for FSX it should then be able to run the Pro package as it is less demanding.

As consumers you hit the nail on the head, you have the choice to purchase or not. Flight1 are so sure you will love it they have as has been posted, included the 30 day money back offer if it is not for you.

I will try and keep everyone posted on what happening, but if you have questions please post them here or head over to the iFly forums and PM me. I am a sim builder at heart who was lucky enough to find a developer what was prepared to indulge a crazy Scotsman and somehow we managed to make it work. For those that know Robert at Engravity ask him what happened when he went to answer the phone when we went to pick up our un tested unit for the Lelystad show, because his facial expressions where really funny.

I miss sim building more than words can express, so please enjoy our great hobby while you can as you never know what curve ball life will send your way.

Take care

Steve Masson

[Bug738]

Steve,

thanks a lot for this very honest and emotional background information. Since the release of the iFly 737 for FS9 (which I own as well as the FSX version), I always admired your commitment in the iFly forum. I think that the amount of trust, the customers of these addon have in its producers, has a lot to do with your personal dedication in this forum. Thank you very much for this.

Regarding my criticism, I have tried to explain this in more detail (probably too much detail) in my last post. I really and honestly appreciate the solution, offered by iFly. As you said, this is a reverse approach to everything so far. And as I said before, the seamless integration of a sophisticated flight model is currently unique on the market, and the effort can't be valued high enough. I wouldn't want in any way debase the work of the iFly developers or team as a whole. They have sufficiently demonstrated their extraordinary capabilities with the release of the iFly 737 (FS9 and FSX). And what I've seen from the distributed gauges/displays seems to be excellent again. But, and this is a large BUT, the difference in the price/performance ratios of the two parts of the product is simply huge in my personal opinion. The efforts of the whole simulator development must have been siginificantly higher than this of the distributed gauges. I work as a team manager in the software development department of a large company which develops professional flight simulators, so I think I can bring in some experience in this area. However, let's stop this discussion here, because I think it won't bring us any further. Maybe I made my point one time too often and I don't want to start bothering the people.

Regarding the Pro version as a whole, integrated solution, I have to admit that it is a real bargain. Compared to the other available products, the only real competition in this area is ProSim737, and you have still to add a flight model and sound here. Where there is a large room of improvement for the iFly Pro version, is the hardware interfacing area (like switches/buttons/encoders/annunciators, etc). I had a look at the IOCP solution of Open Cockpits which is a very nice first step (especially because of the direct access to the SDK without FSUIPC). Unfortunately, it is far from complete now, and it seems to be (unfortunately) not clear, if and when OC will continue to work on this solution. But possibly you have different informations on this. The freeware tool to map FSUIPC offsets to the SDK functions is a good work-around here, so I hope it will be available soon.

When reading all of my last posts, it's probably surprising that I am currently intensely thinking about upgrading my iFly 737 to a Pro license. This would be my third solution there after SA and currently ProSim737 (although I am still happy with the latter). But the integrated approach is really appealing and the performance improvement of the FSX, too.

BTW: Is there or will there be support for motorized throttles (like the RevSim products in my case)?

Thanks for your patience.

Best regards,
Michael

[Steve Masson]

Hello Michael,

As you are in the professional market you will be aware any product developed for a market must be priced to make sure the development costs are covered. An example of this would be that I would when the iFly is complete, the team we produce a new product. The development time from start to release for this team will be 12 months. They work longer hours and at a rate I have never experienced since my first every commercial product in 1994, which was developed for Police Air Support Units. So at the moment the team, have produced a product in 12 months in addition to their other work, the product is the Pro version and its market share is expected to be low in comparison to a normal FS Product. The current price of the software is expected to cover the work that went into the product and no more than that. When Flight1 and iFly discussed pricing it was decided that my wish for the lowest possible price for the solution, would be taken into account and that is where our price comes from.

The spin off side to the project is the FS9 and FSX users are getting a host of improvements we never thought were possible. This all happened because of the different approach we took to the Pro version. The Home is a host to a completely new program that is installed by the Pro and by design as a user you see no difference it is simple to use and setup and has better frame rates than the FSX version. At the event at the weekend I spent the hour before opening, demonstrating the software to other commercial customers, who all thought like you we made a HUGE mistake in pricing, the difference was they thought it should have cost between 3 and 5 times more than the current price. I think you and some other see this as another iFly aircraft when in reality it is a complete new solution with a familiar look. A bit like my beaten up Sharan being returned with completely new engine and handling, but when I look at it, it is the same old Sharan. For the Pro please don't judge this book by it's cover as what is within is completely different.

This program, as I said is pure indulgence for me and by good forture the developer was happy to gamble his time with mine. My reward is to see my fellow sim builders enjoying their creation and when you have 2 hours free time between putting the kids to bed and not falling out with your wife, you can spend 90% of that time flying and not setting up and configuring. I chatted to Jiangwei yesterday and he said creating this for me was pay back, for the work I had done and not about the hours he spent coding and boxing with me about if it could be done or not. He was brought my idea to reality and I am extremely grateful for that. This was not about the money, if it covers the long hours he put in perfect in my eyes he deserves every penny, not many developers wake up at 5.30am at their desk having work all night then went to spend a full day at his job in the University.

I have no grudge with you and fully understand your thinking and between us I think we have put the record straight. I am sure there maybe an email in my mail box from the boss about being this open, but that is who I am take it or leave it. When I was asked to run the forums, I wanted to create somewhere that everyone felt comfortable and not slammed for asking mundane questions. I appreciate your kind comments about how that all worked out, but in truth it is because I found a great bunch of owners that jumped in to help and have become the support and test team. I owe them a huge vote of thanks because for the past three months I have abandoned them while I played with my new toy and for their part they have driven the feature packs forward in my absence and in the process produced some great work.

Cheers

Steve

[Steve Masson]

Just had word from Manuel at OC and they are working on full functionality with the iFly and one of our commercial NG crews has sent him an updated script to look at for the MCP and EFIS.

For OC users it is looking better.

Cheers

Steve