SimAvionics going up in price :-(

[HondaCop]

Well folks, I bit the bullet! I have purchased a Full Edition version of Sim-Avionics. Now I can just concentrate on building my sim, instead of debating over and over what avionics package I should get.

Basically, it was between PM and Sim-Avionics. I do have to say that PM were going to be generous enough to offer me a payment plan spread over 3 months and even a 25% discount. But even with such incentives, I still couldn't justify the hefty amount of money I would have to put into it.

With Sim-Avionics, I am getting a VERY LARGE suite at a much lower price than PM, even after applying the 25% discount offered. And seeing how many users are going more towards the SA side, I guess it was my best route to take.

Now, time to start programming in SIOC and get this baby synced with my hardware! Thanks for all the help, guys.

[dnoize]

And yet you can buy the LevelD B767 with almost all systems modeled for around $50. How come those people at leveld can make a living selling their stuff 10 times cheaper than those at PM & Co who need to increase their prices every few months??

easy, the level-d 767 is more or less a one man show (wade) who does it next to his regular job (and i think the publisher gets most of the money).

Furthermore its a mass product that sold thousands of copies in just the first months.

To compare, i believe the pmdg 747/400 sold over 20.000 copies in the first month.

PM has to employ 3 people. Full time for enrico and i believe he not even sold 2000 copies in the 8 years he exists... Most of these copies were back from the 100-400 dollar times.

trust me....nobody is getting rich there.......

I understand that cockpit building is a niche, but this argument shouldn't allow people to take advantage of an almost non competitive market. The position of PM in my view is what I think American law call a trust.

no trust here....theres plenty of alternatives: sim avionics, flightdecksoftware (still unfinished too, but with excellent support and worth every penny tmho), look at what wizzards like Ian do with pmdg, theres hoppies excellent work for the aerowinx Precision simulator (which will be relaunched in the future btw) and there is many great people offering software in the free domain, like you do yourself ! (thanks for that)

Anyway, we all have the choice to buy or not in the end, I chose not to buy

exactly my point


Stef





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[HondaCop]

PM has to employ 3 people. Full time for enrico and i believe he not even sold 2000 copies in the 8 years he exists... Most of these copies were back from the 100-400 dollar times.

Here is my question though. If the Level-D 767 was priced at $1,200 USD. How many copies you think they would have sold in the first month? I am quite sure that it will not be in the thousands.

I honestly believe that if PM would have priced their product to compete with addons such as the Level-D and PMDG, they would be making a killing. I am not saying that they should sell it for $60 USD, but even at $200 USD, it would sell like hot bread.

Let's look at some hypothetical numbers. You say that PM has not sold 2,000 copies in 8 years. Ok, let's say they have indeed sold 2,000 copies and since they started out much cheaper than current prices, lets meet at the middle and say that they have sold 2,000 copies at $800 USD.

2,000 x 800 = $1.6 million USD

Now, lets say that they targeted the same people that go out and purchase addons such as the Level-D/PMDG and priced it at $200 USD.

20,000 x 200 = $4.0 million USD

Yes, even at $200, it is more expensive than the Level-D/PMDG, but considering the quality of PM and what can be accomplished with it, I don't see why PM wouldn't be able to capture the same market as Level-D/PMDG.

Another prime example of this is the videocard market. The biggest earnings for nVidia/ATI, aren't the high-end videocard sales. It's the mainstream, middle of the road videocards that yield the biggest profits.

[dnoize]

Here is my question though. If the Level-D 767 was priced at $1,200 USD. How many copies you think they would have sold in the first month? I am quite sure that it will not be in the thousands.

probably none

I honestly believe that if PM would have priced their product to compete with addons such as the Level-D and PMDG, they would be making a killing. I am not saying that they should sell it for $60 USD, but even at $200 USD, it would sell like hot bread.

No it wouldnt.

In the early days it was less than 200 $ and it still didnt sell thousands. Even worse: in the early days at the low prices people refused to pay anything for it, spreading key generators on the net.

And even with the low prices, it took PM years to build the 2000 user base.

Please rembember that this is the job for 3 people. You want to be paid for your work dont you ? If PM had not raised the prices it just wouldnt be worthwile anymore and maybe PM would not exist anymore !

And it wouldnt sell like hot bread for another reason. There are MILLIONS of desktop simmers. Thats level-d'/flight1 primairily target.

How many home sim builders are there ? 5 years ago maybe a couple of hundred worldwide.
Now maybe a couple of thousand. I think most cockpit builders come visit this forum. This is the place to be for anyone who builds.
This forum has 6000 members. Maybe half of them are active builders.
lets say its 5000 builders worldwide....of which most of the 'old timers' allready own PM from back in the old days.

Half of your market will even think 400$ is too much. (like 5 years ago, because this discussion is as old as pm is).
They will go for a budget sim with the level-d and its sdk, or PMDG with work arounds, and maybe the next pmdg 737 will have a sdk too.

So lets say you have a market of 2 or 3000 people......
and this market has to be shared with sim-avionics, flightdecksoftware, etc.

Like i said in my previous post, nobody is getting rich here.


If it truly was a market of tens of thousands, they could and would drop the price.....but its not the case.

When sim-avionics and flightdecksoftware released their software, everybody said "now pm will have to drop their price, finally competition is there" .....
But we see the oppsite happening.....competition will have to raise their price too if they want to make a living and want to offer proper support.

Sim-avionics announced its price raise on forehand. I'm sure they have valid reasons for that. I'm even more sure that "getting rich" is not one of those reasons.

imagine all the work involved in developing, offering support (trust me, thats the biggest cost and time consuming factor), etc.
I know some of these developers personally and believe me....its hard work, with long days of coding.

I'm not saying PM is perfect. Its far from perfect.....but it IS what enabled many of us, YEARS AGO, to make our sims come alive.

Is it expensive ? Yes its alot of money.
People are complaining now when its 1000 $
They were also complaining when its was 600 $
And also when it was 400$
And were even pirating it in the early days when it was even cheaper.

And in the same breath, some of them order for 10000$ of dollars in hardware......

I'm not saying you HAVE to buy PM. you can also go for one of the alternatives mentioned in my post above.

Its worth whatever its worth to you.
If you think you need it and you can afford it, then you buy it.
If you think you need it, but cant afford it, then you look for an alternative.

I love ferrari's.....cant afford them....so i drive another car....but i still love ferrari's

Let's look at some hypothetical numbers. You say that PM has not sold 2,000 copies in 8 years. Ok, let's say they have indeed sold 2,000 copies and since they started out much cheaper than current prices, lets meet at the middle and say that they have sold 2,000 copies at $800 USD.

much much less than 800 average, not taking into account the commercial licences....i dont know how many commercial licences they sold.

2,000 x 800 = $1.6 million USD
Now, lets say that they targeted the same people that go out and purchase addons such as the Level-D/PMDG and priced it at $200 USD.

20,000 x 200 = $4.0 million USD

Yes, even at $200, it is more expensive than the Level-D/PMDG, but considering the quality of PM and what can be accomplished with it, I don't see why PM wouldn't be able to capture the same market as Level-D/PMDG.

simply because there are not as many cockpit builders. There are NO 20.000 cockpit builders.

PMDG and Flight1 sell these numbers of copies in just a few months. PM and competition wouldnt sell it in years and they have to share a much smaller market.

Another prime example of this is the videocard market. The biggest earnings for nVidia/ATI, aren't the high-end videocard sales. It's the mainstream, middle of the road videocards that yield the biggest profits.

especially when you know that the cost of manufacturing of the mainstream gpu's is just a few dollars. while a complete card costs just a few tenners....now see how the profit is made. What you pay for is the development costs of the high end cards....not the hardware...in a year they will be as cheap as todays budget cards.



when there is a high demand, you can lower the price (see how a 22 inch tft is cheaper than a 10 inch .


There simply isnt high enough demand to release software like pm at 200$, employ 3 people, have a solid support team and survive......


just my 2 cents.......maybe i see it all wrong......


Stef



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[W9XE/Project777]

Well I took the plung. In made the order to Sim-Avionics for the Full B777 package. My cost with the exchange rate was $507.11 USD.

I was able to get the test to work so I should be good. I have PM as well with the full Boeing Suite at $1500.00. I will use the PM Instructor Station so at least the full purchase price is not lost.

Will be looking forward in getting panels and actually building something I can use the software on.

[mounty]

Hi,

I just gotta toss my 10 cents in. Neither product is finished. PM has been on the market for a number of years and they still have problems. Sim Avionics is not yet completed. As some of you have remarked above, there are options such as Level D 767.

I personally think it is an exhorbitant price to pay for a piece of software that still is incomplete. There are guys out there who are making great progress with PMDG which has a better logic system that PM. Patience is all it takes until someone will be able to produce either a complete working software or an interface that can be used on most aircraft.

While I would like to have a fully integrated cocskpit, I am prepared to wait until there is a better alternative to PM or SA. I have about 80% functionality using FSUIPC and addon hardware whicxh does me for the moment.

Rob

[Bob Reed]

Hi,

I just gotta toss my 10 cents in. Neither product is finished. PM has been on the market for a number of years and they still have problems. Sim Avionics is not yet completed. As some of you have remarked above, there are options such as Level D 767.

I personally think it is an exhorbitant price to pay for a piece of software that still is incomplete. There are guys out there who are making great progress with PMDG which has a better logic system that PM. Patience is all it takes until someone will be able to produce either a complete working software or an interface that can be used on most aircraft.

While I would like to have a fully integrated cocskpit, I am prepared to wait until there is a better alternative to PM or SA. I have about 80% functionality using FSUIPC and addon hardware whicxh does me for the moment.

Rob

We also forget we are comparing Apples to Oranges when we start comparing PM or SA or any of these products to PMDG, Level D767. PM and SA and others work over a network and handle a very complex logic stream. Doing some programing on my own I know this is not an easy task. Level D and PMDG concentrate on 1 model where PM and AS seem to try to do a number. PMDG and Level D ( and I am sure I am missing a few) are not intended to be used over a network so much less coding! They are also designed, for the most part . to be used from a desktop. So take all the logic and graphics goodies and spread that out over a network (this alone is a lot of coding!) and you are not comparing like products. I also agree with above posts the building community is very small and there for very few sales will be made relatively speaking in the life of the product. It is a matter of what you feel you need and what you feel you can do without. There is no one answer to any problem. I know for all the years I have been doing this I have bought and replaced many components of the sim. Panels, computers,monitors ext... I have used PM through out, never replaced it. So start adding up the cost for all the replacement stuff. Looking at it I see my software purchase was one of the more sound or cost effective expenditures of my cockpit.

That is my 2cents......

[ChrisKLAS]

Flying off topic here:

Can someone explain the benefits of SimAvionics over PM, especially as they'd apply to a 737NG pit builder? I saw a few posts in this thread saying SA is believed to be superior in certain areas, but I don't know much about it.

Thanks in advance!

[HondaCop]

I think it would be a good idea to have a SimAvionics forum here at Mycockpit.org. It's gut-wrenching waiting for a response at their website. Seeing how much more traffic we have here, I think it would be a good idea.

[sgaert]

Hi,
for me there are 2 big benefits.
1: A compleat Server - Client System with a Server that has all logic. In PM you have to start the MCP if you need the MCP or PMSystems if you need the System Logic. With SA The MCP and Overhead Software are only Panels without own logic controled by the Server Application.

2: You have no Offsets given, you can enter in the clean file all Offsets how you need them. The first month i used the PM Offsets at my overhead.

Stefan