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  1. #1
    300+ Forum Addict XOrionFE's Avatar
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    Trouble with Throttles and FSUIPC

    I am trying to calibrate my two throttles in FSUIPC 4.3 for FSX (Learjet) and cannot get them to work correctly. The pots are reversed from each other in my setup. Thottle 1 when pushed full forward gives a negative value and when pulled back reads a positive. Thottle 2 is opposite. It reads positive when pushed forward and negative going back (like you would expect). Even when I check REV box on Throttle 1 and then reset and set it still reads from positive to negative values as I push forward. This makes it damn near impossible to correctly set the values for Reverse, Idle, and Max as they want to be in ascending order. If and when I get that squared away, when pulled all the way back they activate Reverse Thrust which I do not want them to do. I cannot get rid of the reverse portion in FSUIPC. I know this has to do something with Reverse thrust settings in the .air file but I dont have a clue how to edit or if one even should. I want to have the levers go back to idle detent and be at idle but then when I go past Idle detent and back to full minimum throw I dont want reversers I just want nothing or Throttle Cut. I realize I may have to put a switch back there for throttle cuttoff but it appears you can do this within FSUIPC somehow also.
    I have seperate reverse thrust levers that will activate microswitches for Reverse Thrust.

    Long winded I know....

    Can anyone offer some tips?

    Thank you

    Scott

  2. #2
    Boeing 777 Builder


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    Hi Scott,

    Why don't you just assign your throttles in FS itself and not use FSUIPC. I know Pete has suggested this on many occasions in response to problems. Basically if you only want plain operating axis, just let FS handle them. And of course FS doesn't employ reverse thrust for their axis.

    As for setting the values, I also have particular axis that work in reverse, however it's no problem, you just set whatever is the minimum value (i.e. -64385 for example) in the left box and the upper +ve value in the right box. It shouldn't matter whether you are pushing forward or pulling back to achieve this, FSUIPC just needs to know the range of vaules. You check the REV then to correct for your required movement. As for the reversing range problem, I would have thought that setting the two so-called reverse settings to equal the lower limit would negate the Reversing function by I could be wrong. My throttles are setup for reversing as I have a mechanical reversing gate to achieve this.

    I hope I've understood your problem and answered correctly?

    Ken.
    Opencockpits | Aerosim Solutions | Sim-Avionics | P3D | FDS | FTX | AS16 | PPL | Kennair


  3. #3
    2000+ Poster - Never Leaves the Sim Michael Carter's Avatar
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    I did what Ken suggests. FSUIPC would not calibrate my throttles correctly. No matter how much I worked with it, the axis were reversed, not enough throw on the throttle lever, or zero power & full power were the only settings.

    I gave up and let FS handle the throttles. Not one problem since.

    FSUIPC does everything great except throttles for some reason.
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  4. #4
    500+ This must be a daytime job
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Carter View Post
    I did what Ken suggests. FSUIPC would not calibrate my throttles correctly. No matter how much I worked with it, the axis were reversed, not enough throw on the throttle lever, or zero power & full power were the only settings.

    I gave up and let FS handle the throttles. Not one problem since.

    FSUIPC does everything great except throttles for some reason.
    Odd that no one ever comes to my Support Forum and says these things? FSUIPC has always been excellent with throttles (that was one of the first things supported so that reversers could be added). And there's no way any problems are going to be resolved if folks don't come and ask, but just stop using it instead! How does that help anyone?

    Reversal is simply a checkbox. Both FS and FSUIPC have reversal capabilities. Double reversal isn't good.

    FSUIPC, like FS itself, treats all axes alike, or at least in two groups -- those which natural centres like aileron, elevator, rudder, and those with no centres or off-centred centres, like brakes, throttles, prop pitch, mixture, spoiler and flaps. If you have problems with throttle calibration you must for sure have problems with all the others, as there's no essential differences.

    The Saitek throttle quadrants have an installation error which causes the left-most two levers to be recognised only as digital (on or off) controls, like a game pad, to any program not using DirectInput (like FSUIPC3. FSUIPC4 uses DirectInput for axes, but not FSUIPC3). The fix is a registry edit it seems -- I don't know wehy Saitek don't fix their installer. Maybe other devices also have similar problems. I think some of these companies don't test their installations fully.

    Pete

  5. #5
    1000+ Poster - Fantastic Contributor Jackpilot's Avatar
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    I built my TQ with pots and calibration of the whole thing with FSUIPC was no prob. Especially the use of a pot for the flap (and speedbrake) lever allows simple construction and precise detents positionning.
    Had some difficulties though to synchronize the two power levers...which is a pain during low power manual approaches.
    Jack
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  6. #6
    500+ This must be a daytime job
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackpilot View Post
    Had some difficulties though to synchronize the two power levers...which is a pain during low power manual approaches.
    Two hints there.

    First, never use a "slope" on throttles, unless you have to because the pot inside the device is logarithmic instead of linear (most unlikely). Just be sure the slope option is set to its default of 0 (straight lines).

    Second, assuming your two (or more) levers are truly identical, then you can calibrate one well, the others roughly, then simply go into the FSUIPC INI file and copy the set of good numbers over the rough ones for the other levers. That way you are sure to get the same numbers on each.

    If the pots in the device(s) aren't truly identical, or there's more capacitance or inductance or whatever in one wire than the other, then the inputs from them might still not quite match. You need to watch the N1% or RPM, not the lever positions. Some discrepancy in the positions of throttles is quite realistic, though -- as you can see from cockpit videos. The throttles are rarely exactly in line for exactly the same thrust. (The Airbus is of course different in this respect as their "thrusters" are more like mode selectors).

    I still believe the numerical method of calibrating used in FSUIPC is capable of far more precision than those methods which simply relay on watching blobs move about.

    Regards

    Pete

  7. Thanks Kennair, Jackpilot, Tomlin, Trevor Hale thanked for this post
  8. #7
    500+ This must be a daytime job ian@737ng.co.uk's Avatar
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    throttles

    hi guys....
    i have to agree with both peter and Jackpilot. all my axes are calibrated using FSUIPC and work a charm.
    however going back to the original question, maybe a dumb suggestion, but if all else fails, swap the 0v and 5v leads on the offending pot. that'll fix it.
    have a great evening chaps.....
    regards ... ian
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  9. #8
    300+ Forum Addict XOrionFE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Dowson View Post
    Two hints there.

    First, never use a "slope" on throttles, unless you have to because the pot inside the device is logarithmic instead of linear (most unlikely). Just be sure the slope option is set to its default of 0 (straight lines).

    Second, assuming your two (or more) levers are truly identical, then you can calibrate one well, the others roughly, then simply go into the FSUIPC INI file and copy the set of good numbers over the rough ones for the other levers. That way you are sure to get the same numbers on each.

    If the pots in the device(s) aren't truly identical, or there's more capacitance or inductance or whatever in one wire than the other, then the inputs from them might still not quite match. You need to watch the N1% or RPM, not the lever positions. Some discrepancy in the positions of throttles is quite realistic, though -- as you can see from cockpit videos. The throttles are rarely exactly in line for exactly the same thrust. (The Airbus is of course different in this respect as their "thrusters" are more like mode selectors).

    I still believe the numerical method of calibrating used in FSUIPC is capable of far more precision than those methods which simply relay on watching blobs move about.

    Regards

    Pete
    Ok,

    First off Pete, I went to your forum late last night at about Midnight and found I had forgotten what username I had put there and was tired so just ended up posting my question here but I will make an effort tonight to try again and then get on your forum.

    I have an actual set of Learjet Throttles and am using gearing and 100K Ohm Linear Taper pots from Radio Shack. They are facing each other so one is the reverse of the other (although I never though of changing the wiring to create my own reverse).

    I do not have them configured at all in FSX but only in FSUIPC. I tried the REV checkbox a multitude of times. I still dont understand why the REV checkbox has no effect on the values being Negative at Full throttle versus Positive at Low Throttle and the applet doesnt seem to allow you to set Reverse, Idle, and Max in that order? I must be doing something wrong. I read your manual and played with it for over two hours last night until I finally gave up and went to bed. I also still dont understand how I can make it so there is no reverse thrust zone. I have an Idle detent and anything behind that needs to be throttle cutoff not reverse thrust.

    So I have two problems. One, how to make values be read negative at low throttle and postive at max when the REV checkbox doesnt seem to have an effect on this, and two, how to I get rid of Reverse thrust (my reversers are different set of switches).

    If there isnt an answer in FSUIPC then I can see where just setting in FSX makes more sense.

    Any help is appreciated Pete. BTW - I do have spoilers and flaps and those I have working perfectly within fsuipc and all zones and detents work great. It is the throttles that are killing me.

    Scott

  10. #9
    1000+ Poster - Fantastic Contributor Jackpilot's Avatar
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    I may be wrong but as far as I remember the figures always go from minus something to plus something, negative values have nothing to do with reverse.
    Maybe one of your pots has to be wired opposite of what it is and both will work the same way.
    Then you can calibrate from idle to max power and wire your reverse switches to command F2 with a repeat.
    Cheers
    Jack
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  11. #10
    500+ This must be a daytime job
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    Quote Originally Posted by XOrionFE View Post
    I do not have them configured at all in FSX but only in FSUIPC. I tried the REV checkbox a multitude of times. I still dont understand why the REV checkbox has no effect on the values being Negative at Full throttle versus Positive at Low Throttle and the applet doesnt seem to allow you to set Reverse, Idle, and Max in that order?
    The calibration is prohibited from having those out of order. The "minimum" or "max reverse" setting must be lower (or more negative if it goes negative -- not all axes do) than either of the centre or "idle" zone settings which must in turn be lower than the max (max thrust) setting.

    That is the only imposition. It will not allow you to violate that rule (if it did it would really mess up the interpolation computations like crazy!).

    So, if you somehow got a negative value in the max position, or a big positive value in the rev thrust or minimum position, you have to correct those first.

    That is all. there are NO OTHER RULES there, only the imposition of order, low on left to high on right. The middle two have to be between the other two but themselves may be in either order. they just define the idle zone -- and it must be a zone, not just a "point". (There's really no such thing as a single selectable point on an analogue axis, even with detentes).

    If your levers are acting in reverse, then you should select the REV option BEFORE doing the calibration. Otherwise the interpolations will be wrong. Reversing after calibrating is not good unless the axis is truly symmetrical, like aileron, elevator and rudder. Obviously for symmetrical axes the reversal is simple. For centres which are not truly central it gets the ranges into a real mess. So calibrate AFTER getting the direction correct.

    I must be doing something wrong. I read your manual and played with it for over two hours last night until I finally gave up and went to bed.
    I just can't imagine how it can take more than a couple of minutes at most. It is so stark-ravingly simple! What you see is exactly what you get. There's nothing hidden, nothing clever. It's just saying "my axis runs from here, which is where I want reverse, to here which is where I want idle to start, to here, which is the end of the idle zone, to here, where I want max thrust. That's it. Dead simple, nothing hidden, no magic.

    I always advise making the two extremes a little away from your real extreme values, so you can be sure of always reaching them even with expected variations in the pot readings -- and you do get those. They vary with humidity, temperature, dirt, and so on.

    The documentation only says the same. But mostly it is entirely intuitive and 99% of users find it so. I don't understand why some don't -- must be some sort of number blindness. Some folks are more graphically minded instead I assume. I prefer numerical precision.

    I also still dont understand how I can make it so there is no reverse thrust zone. I have an Idle detent and anything behind that needs to be throttle cutoff not reverse thrust.
    Well, the whole system is really designed to provide a nice reverse thrust capability, that's why it was done, but you should be able to achieve that by making the one of the two centre/idle values as close as possible to the minimum value. Ideally the minimum value should be below the lowest negative number you can achieve, but of course you can't set that with the axis as it won't get there. You might be able to improve it by editing the numbers in the INI file afterwards. But you have to make the whole area, from just above your idle detente (to allow for variation as i said) to as close as you can get to the minimum, all part of the idle zone -- i.e. the two centre values.

    That's all. It's much easier to do than describe.

    If there isnt an answer in FSUIPC then I can see where just setting in FSX makes more sense.
    Well, in the 10+ years FSUIPC has featured this facility I've only had about three requests asking how to remove the reverse zone, and my answer above has worked for those users. If there were a general clamour for it I would have added another set of 4 throttles with no reverse zone, or simply put such an option on that page, but it didn't seem to be needed and so would just make things more complex than necessary.

    But please yourself. Use FS assignments if you really find this so so difficult. I just don't understand why.

    Pete

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