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  1. #1
    Our new friend needs to reach 10 posts to get to the next flight level
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    Hello to all (especially to 727 folks)!

    Hello,

    With 2008 around the corner, I figured it was time to join the forums for the new year.

    A quick introduction:

    My project is not quite a sim but, rather, a historical and technically accurate restoration of a 727-100 cockpit (sort of). I have a real -100 main instrument panel (MIP), overhead (100% filled with correct modules), throttle quadrant, and control columns plus yokes at present. The MIP is now 100% filled with correct analog instruments and warning lights. This will be a working restoration which means I intend to have all instruments/lights fully functional. However, in order to preserve the historical restoration, I am working to one simple rule, which is: "no instrument or component is to be modified in any way". This means I have to design interfaces to all instruments using their native (original) signal format. Being an Airframe and Powerplant technician, and an Aerospace electrical engineer, this is not particulary a major problem but it will require a lot of work (currently in progress).

    My original intent was to have a working static display but the more I think about it, the idea of connecting the above to operate as a functional simulator makes sense. Once I have all the interfaces done, the next logical step would be to have Flight Simulator be the source to drive eveything in response to control inputs (i.e., flying). But, that part of the project is way off at the present time.

    I also have all modules for the Flight Engineer station and will eventually get that going as well.

    I also have quite a bit of 727 technical data to include flight manuals, aircraft maintenance manuals, aircraft wiring diagrams, and some instrument overhaul manuals in case anyone is looking for some technical information that is not otherwise readily available.

    At the moment, I do not have any digital photos of the project but when I get some, I will post them.

    If anyone has any questions, please let me know. I always like to share with others, especailly those who also like the 'ole 3-holer.

    Happy holidays to all!!

    Rick

  2. #2
    MyCockpit Support Staff


    Westozy's Avatar
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    Welcome to MyCockpit Rick,

    We have a few 727 sim builders here, it will be great to have your tech know how available for our members. Looking forward to seeing your pics.

    Regards, Gwyn

    737NG using Prosim737, Immersive Calibration Pro, Aerosim Solutions motorized TQ & cockpit hardware, CP Flight MCP & FDS SYS1X, SYS2X & SYS4X, FDS PRO FMCs, AFDS units & Glarewings, Matrix Orbital ELEC display, Pokeys Landing & Cruise alt display, Buttkicker Gamers, 3 x BenqMW811ST projectors with a Matrox Th2Go
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  3. #3
    2000+ Poster - Never Leaves the Sim Michael Carter's Avatar
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    A big 'Welcome' from me. Glad to have you aboard.

    I have some pin-out questions for some Gables equipment I'll bother you with after the holiday.
    Boeing Skunk Works
    Remember...140, 250, and REALLY FAST!

    We don't need no stinkin' ETOPS!



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  4. #4
    Executive Vice President, MyCockpit


    Matt Olieman's Avatar
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    Oops!!! another 727 builder.... What's an airbus person, like myself, to do with all these 727 builders

    Glad to have you aboard Rick, you're in good company

  5. #5
    2000+ Poster - Never Leaves the Sim Michael Carter's Avatar
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    It's nice to know there are more 727 builders that aren't afraid of a challenge.

    I'd be willing to bet that if software and hardware development companies would support this aircraft, more people would build it. A smaller percentage for sure and prices would reflect that, but at least parts and pieces and software would be available.

    I really shouldn't be complaining though. Surplus Boeing equipment is much cheaper than any aftermarket 737, 57, 67, 47 equipment. And it's the real part. Not something close, not 80% scale, no guesswork involved. If it has a Boeing or other mfg part number, you have the real deal.

    The reverse engineering can sometimes be a PITA, and it helps to have a background in electronics, but it's by no means rocket science to hook up switches and get indicators working.

    It's rather scary jumping in to uncharted waters with few, if any, that have gone before you.

    If it hadn't been for Joe's incredible 727, I might not even have a simulator, because it was a 727 or nothing.
    Boeing Skunk Works
    Remember...140, 250, and REALLY FAST!

    We don't need no stinkin' ETOPS!



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  6. #6
    Our new friend needs to reach 10 posts to get to the next flight level
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    All,

    Thanks for the comments! I'm glad to be here.

    For Boeing Skunk Works -

    Regarding Gables pin-outs; this is one manufacturer that I have no data for. Not sure why but their data is not readily available as is Collins. I've had to ring-out the pins on my Gable control heads instead of looking them up as I have for other components. For Nav/Com heads, it would be helpful to know the 2-out-of-5 standard that was used to define the frequencies on older aircraft before digital data buses. Basically, each digit of the frequency is defined by five discretes (five wires) where any two of them are grounded (logic 0) while the other three are held logic high. By varying the pattern of the two discretes that are grounded, the numbers 0-9 are defined for that digit. For the higher weight digits, like the 10 megahertz digit, several of the inputs are typically hard wired inside the control head since there will only be a few combinations used (e.g., 100 mhz (0), 120 mhz (2), 130 mhz (3)); no need to carry wires for discretes that never change.

    Let me know what Gables questions you have and maybe I have something here that will help. One avenue I have used before is to use my aircraft wiring diagrams to help figure out pinouts of control heads and other things. Sometimes this works and sometimes not; the biggest problem is that the diagram does not identify the model of the control head, so sometimes is takes some deduction work to figure it out. I recently used this method to figure out the pinouts for my radio altimeter instrument (vertical tape type)that would have been a nightmare to figure out by reverse engineering.

    Rick

  7. #7
    2000+ Poster - Never Leaves the Sim Michael Carter's Avatar
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    Hi!

    Just one piece for now that I haven't had on the bench yet: Gables G-3859, 32 pin jack for the advanced WX radar controller.

    I only need the pins for the lightplate and push-buttons. Would the indicator lamps in the PB's be 28vdc? Unlike Collins equipment, I've found that Gables uses both voltages for a lot of the indicators for their control heads.

    If you don't have this info, no sweat. I'm used to probing with a meter.

    The most difficult peice I had to figure out was the flight director control. I called a shop in Memphis and the guy was very helpful. It was only a 26 or 28 pin jack, but no matter what I probed, I couldn't find those two pins.

    Thanks!
    Boeing Skunk Works
    Remember...140, 250, and REALLY FAST!

    We don't need no stinkin' ETOPS!



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  8. #8
    Executive Assistant Geremy Britton's Avatar
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    i would like to know how to backlight my panel. i bought an odd on from ebay becuase it was going realy cheap. it's a transponder i think from a 727 or similar.. it has 2 metal leg pins on the back that stick out about an inch. are these the backlight connectors and if so what voltage is the most likly they will take?

    (sorry if i seem to be hijacking, but just a quick question i can slot in here whilst on topic.)

    geremy

  9. #9
    2000+ Poster - Never Leaves the Sim Michael Carter's Avatar
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    Can you post a photo? I'm not getting a mental picture of what you're talking about.

    Most lightplates are five volts, but I have a couple of Gables radio source selectors that use the 28VDC. It's the only two I have that use that voltage, but you never know what's out there.

    Try with 5VDC first, if it doesn't light, move up to 12. If it's dim, it's 28VDC.
    Boeing Skunk Works
    Remember...140, 250, and REALLY FAST!

    We don't need no stinkin' ETOPS!



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  10. #10
    Our new friend needs to reach 10 posts to get to the next flight level
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    BSW - I don't have any data for the G-3859 Radar head but I looked at one of your pictures to see which one you have; turns out that I have one very, very close to that model (G-2722). The light plate lamps are 5 VDC; I just verified the voltage before writing this but mine has two external connectors, so the pin outs are probably not the same as yours.

    Regarding the six push buttons; my push buttons, which are labeled the same as yours, do not have lights in them. It sort of looks like there is a bulb in there but, in reality, it is just the drilled plastic that looks like a bulb. With the light plate bulbs on (night operation), any button that is pushed in lights up because it gets light from the side of the panel when it is pushed in.

    737 GEZ - I take the same approach with bulbs as BSW suggested; try 5 VDC first and if very dim or not on at all, try 12 or 28 VDC. Most commercial airline equipment does not use 12 VDC as General Aviation does, so it is typically 5 or 28 VDC.

    I suspect the two "pins" you are referring to are the connector alignment pins. Is the connector round or rectangular, like a PC 25-pin printer connector? The older heads and on some aircraft (e.g., DC- used these types of connectors and not the more traditional rounds ones we typically see. As BSW suggested, a picture would be very helpful. If the "pins" are, in fact, for alignment, they have no electrical function. There would be two pins on the connector itself that carry the voltage to the bulbs.

    There are typically two different types of backlighting used on these heads, (1) bulbs mounted to the back-side of the plastic light plate and (2) bulbs mounted in sockets on the metal plate that the plastic lightplate mounts to. If #1, there will be a special connector on the metal plate with two wires on it located right beneath the little "+" that should be seen on the plastic lightplate front. If #2, you will see wires soldered to the several light sockets (which are wired in parallel) that are mounted to the metal plate (look on the backside). In either case, with the unit opened up, find the two wires that leave the bulb sockets (or special connector) that go to the external connector. You can do a continuity (resistance) check with an Volt-Ohm meter to identify the light pins. Put one lead on one of the bulb wires and the other probe on each of pins (one at a time) on the unit's external connector. When you get near zero ohms on one pin, you found the pin associated with that light wire. Change the meter lead to the other bulb wire and repeat the process, trying each pin again (except the one you already found); when another pin shows near zero ohms, you found the second light pin. If you hit the first light pin, the resistance will be higher then 0 but not as high as infinity because you are now measuring through the bulbs. This will also happen if you get to the "second" pin first before getting to the pin connected to the first wire you are measuring. Again, the higher resistance would be due to measuring through the bulbs. Of course, this presumes the light bulbs and/or light plate are installed at the time.

    You would apply the 5 VDC (+) on one pin and (-) side on the other pin; the lights should illuminate. Polarity does not matter.

    If you have any questions, please let me know; it sure takes a lot of words to explain a simple process. See if you can post a picture as well.

    For all - I took some pictures of my 727 panels and will post them in a few days. I still use film, so you know the waiting process....

    Rick

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