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droddis
06-25-2007, 10:53 AM
I am currently working on developing a shell made from wood, i am working on the drawings in autocad. If anyone is interested i will post the 3d Model and 2D Drawings soon just for an idea of what its like heres the first draft.
http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/20063/2000788583373893925_rs.jpg

ak49er
06-25-2007, 12:29 PM
Excellent work, I would be interested in the plansa for your shell.

Jackpilot
06-25-2007, 12:35 PM
My 2cents+ my experience
Whatever the design, has to be in metal.
Preferably welded subframes to be bolted together.

Steel is pretty cheap vs Aluminum (not being airborne= weight is not a factor)
Subframes go through doors!

Wood frames cannot support Overhead weight and have to be attached to an outside steel boxframe to be rigid enough. Once in place they cannot be moved out without heavy damage

Your design looks great..the simpler the better.
Let us know..lots of us would be interested
Jack

Westozy
06-25-2007, 07:33 PM
My 2cents+ my experience
Whatever the design, has to be in metal.
Preferably welded subframes to be bolted together.

Steel is pretty cheap vs Aluminum (not being airborne= weight is not a factor)
Subframes go through doors!

Wood frames cannot support Overhead weight and have to be attached to an outside steel boxframe to be rigid enough. Once in place they cannot be moved out without heavy damage

Your design looks great..the simpler the better.
Let us know..lots of us would be interested
Jack


I agree, it has to be steel for strength. A timber construction of equivalant strength would be heavier than steel tubing anyway. My sim has a 1" square steel tube chassis and the roof is made out of 3/4" square steel tubing which is fixed to the chassis. The windshield frames and roof section is all one piece and attaches to the frames that support the ends of the MIP, the whole thing is cantilevered and very strong, it doesn't need any support behind the seats and that's with the overhead fitted. There is just one brace that goes from the 'point' of the windshield down to the lower chassis which prevents any movement. The roof section cost $60 (Aussie) and took about 6 hours to weld up. I used oxy fusion welding, it's neat, free of slag and doesn't blow holes in the tubing like an arc welder.
Just an engineer's 2 cents worth!!!!

Gwyn

Gsey
06-25-2007, 07:42 PM
Having recently spent many frustrating hours taking down my wooden frame I also say go with metal. Do it once and do it right. You will be glad you did when you finally have a full operating sim. Undoing all the electrical is a nightmare.

Gary

NicD
06-25-2007, 08:18 PM
Yep, steel gets my vote for sure. I used 40mm square tube for the main frame which is very strong, but in hindsight I could of used 30mm, maybe even 20mm.

ivar hestnes
06-27-2007, 07:19 PM
Dont under-estimate the strenght of wood. Anyone heard of the sproose goose:D. If properly built, it have more than enough strenght to hold everything needed in the overhead. Wood is also alot cheaper and lighter than steel.

I have testet my construction and hooked 65kg under my roof. No problem at all. And I still have some reinforcements to do before I am satisfied to start covering with plywood. And the covering itself will help alot of the strenght.

I believe my setup can carry at least 150kg under the roof when finished.
It wont ever be that heavy with all hardware installed.

I also build my shell in modules so it can be easy dismantled for transport or moving. Cockpit split in the middle, roof, and base is two pieces. I will split up my construction in a few days when I will start covering the roof. I will upload some pictures then:)

QF6228
06-27-2007, 10:17 PM
I agree with Ivar, if properly built it wood can hold just as much and it is cost effective.
In saying this I also agree that metal is obviously much stronger but it can cost more in regards to material and tools.

My 2c.
Damien.

droddis
06-28-2007, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the response(s) as soon as complete the plans i will upload them in varous formats for all. I have read what people say about wood vs. metal, but it is an easy one for me to decide, i dont have any knowlledge with metal, and wouldn't know where to start. Where as my dad is a joiner an with enough moaning i will hopefully be able to get him to do the majority of the work. I have seen various projects made from wood and quite a few have the overhead assemblie in place.

Thanks Guys

Dave

Jackpilot
06-29-2007, 10:52 AM
"I have testet my construction and hooked 65kg under my roof. No problem at all. And I still have some reinforcements to do before I am satisfied to start covering with plywood. And the covering itself will help alot of the strenght."

Ivar.
Shure about the Spruce Goose and many GA aircrafts
Steel bars are dirt cheap and any welding shop can do the assembly for about 100 dollars. The difficulty is design.
And there is no need for a skin. Just triming the inside.

This being said...we would be delighted to see a picture of your wood structure

dnoize
06-29-2007, 10:58 AM
http://www.mycockpit.org/photos/sim-bygging.jpg










Stef










.

Michael Carter
06-29-2007, 11:18 AM
Looks great to me!

How tall is that shell? You've got the wheels in my head turning now.

I'm pretty handy in the shop myself and could build something like that if I have the height. I think I'm going to fall a little short in that area though.

Bob Reed
06-29-2007, 11:45 AM
Hey BSW! The beauty of that is you can build what you can use. I have no where near that hight but I do not need a roof! ( floor of upstairs) But I could build the front part and the sides!! I love that shell!

ivar hestnes
06-29-2007, 12:52 PM
Looks great to me!

How tall is that shell? You've got the wheels in my head turning now.

I'm pretty handy in the shop myself and could build something like that if I have the height. I think I'm going to fall a little short in that area though.

Measurements:

Base: 20cm high (2"8")
With aft 285cm
with front 158cm

Shell: lenght 234cm
top of base to top of roof 201cm


Total height = 221cm

This is a very big job to do with not to much to start with. A lot of patience is required, but thats what sim-builders have plenty of:lol:

A lot of measuring, studying and try and fail. Pictures of different kind is good help, and use drawings/measurements from different web-sides. Comparing them and adjusting.

There is a almost complete progress of my setup here: http://http://www.flightsim.no/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307503&page=1#Post307503

Language is norwegian but the pictures can talk:lol:

Bob Reed
06-29-2007, 01:08 PM
Measurements:

Base: 20cm high (2"8")
With aft 285cm
with front 158cm

Shell: lenght 234cm
top of base to top of roof 201cm


Total height = 221cm

This is a very big job to do with not to much to start with. A lot of patience is required, but thats what sim-builders have plenty of:lol:

A lot of measuring, studying and try and fail. Pictures of different kind is good help, and use drawings/measurements from different web-sides. Comparing them and adjusting.

There is a almost complete progress of my setup here: http://http://www.flightsim.no/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307503&page=1#Post307503

Language is norwegian but the pictures can talk:lol:

Hey Ivar.. The link is not working.

ivar hestnes
06-29-2007, 01:37 PM
Sorry;)

http://www.flightsim.no/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307503&page=1&fpart=1

Matt Olieman
06-29-2007, 03:08 PM
Had to fix the original image for you Ivar. I was so impressed with your work, I had to make it work, I did some creative work to make it appear :)

ivar hestnes
06-29-2007, 03:23 PM
I am very happy that you like it:)

Thank you very much:)

dnoize
06-29-2007, 03:48 PM
i think we all do...

I'm very impressed...




Stef

Michael Carter
06-29-2007, 11:31 PM
My ceiling is short by 16cm. I could get by without the external roof and I have enough room for the internal ceiling up and aft of the overhead.

Something to think about down the road. So many plans, so little time to work.

I'm also lacking a bit of width, but since I'm building a SSTD, I could get by with a shell without most of the FO's side.

W9XE/Project777
06-29-2007, 11:33 PM
Ivar,
I to am very impressed with the wood working. It looks plenty strong to me. Yes there may be some advantages to metal but there is more skill required to weld than using a nail gun.

Guys make sure you are checking out his gallery here. http://www.mycockpit.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1669 :D:D:D This is a master at work...

Trevor Hale
07-01-2007, 11:32 AM
As some of you have seen my photo's I used wood, and then reinforced it with fiberglass. Ivar's roof section looks much stronger then mine, and mine holds my overhead and all the lighting flawlessly.

No issues of collapse on my part. If I has the ability to weld, I might have tried that, however I am an electronics guy with woodworking tools, so welding is out of the question for me. I have a local welding shop here, It would cost me an arm and a leg to have them manufacture something for me.

Just my two cents worth.

Jackpilot
07-01-2007, 03:58 PM
welding is out of the question for me. I have a local welding shop here, It would cost me an arm and a leg to have them manufacture something for me.


Trevor
The next door welding shop did an aluminum frame for my overheads for $CA120!! not exactly expensive.

ivar hestnes
07-01-2007, 07:51 PM
As some of you have seen my photo's I used wood, and then reinforced it with fiberglass. Ivar's roof section looks much stronger then mine, and mine holds my overhead and all the lighting flawlessly.

No issues of collapse on my part. If I has the ability to weld, I might have tried that, however I am an electronics guy with woodworking tools, so welding is out of the question for me. I have a local welding shop here, It would cost me an arm and a leg to have them manufacture something for me.

Just my two cents worth.

How is your experience with fiber-glass for reinforcement? Does it crack? Since wood is a "living" material.

I made two layers of 4mm ply. Top layer is ply-strips with 5cm width. Of course there is some millimeter gap here and there. I cannot use filler because it will crack. I am thinking about using epoxy for filler and reinforcement. And for getting the smooth surface.

Anybody got experience with epoxy?

If I get tired of simbuilding, I can turn my shell upside down and attach an Evinrude. Then I have a cool boat:D

Michael Carter
07-01-2007, 09:18 PM
If you seal the wood tightly with a quality deck sealer, you should be able to use filler for any gaps with no shrink or expansion, causing cracking of the filler material. I would do this in the winter when the moisture content will be the lowest. You should also treat the wood surface on the inside if you can still get to the inner surfaces.

You could also fibreglass the entire outer shell, sand, seal, and use an epoxy primer before the finish coat. That would be quite a bit of work, but it would add to the strength of the outer shell, bind all of the panels together, and eliminate the 'living' part.

Getting back to the shell-building itself, I will probably have to piece meal a shell or partial shell around my interior equipment.

As you can see in the photo, this is what I have to deal with. There are no other options in my house unless I give up my work shop, and I'm not about to do that.

The MIP will be placed in the 4' tipout that is currently home to the computer table you see in the photo, holding the monitors, my desk lamp, etc.

I might be able to manage at least a partial shell, but instead of building the shell and placing everything in it, I'll have to build the partial shell around everything I already have.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/Desktopcockpit-1.jpg

ivar hestnes
07-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Thank you for good inputs BSW.

I have some considerations to make before top-coat. Will figure out;)

Have covered first layer on the roof and start with base tomorrow. Believe everything is covered and sanded within 2 weeks.

The outside result is getting closer after more than six months work:D

JBaymore
07-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Ivar,

Beautiful craftsmanship on the shell. Clean precise work. Work of art all by itself.

(That's coming from a professional artist/craftsperson.)

best,

.................john

ivar hestnes
07-04-2007, 12:55 PM
Thank you very much John:)

Trevor Hale
07-04-2007, 01:15 PM
How is your experience with fiber-glass for reinforcement? Does it crack? Since wood is a "living" material.

I made two layers of 4mm ply. Top layer is ply-strips with 5cm width. Of course there is some millimeter gap here and there. I cannot use filler because it will crack. I am thinking about using epoxy for filler and reinforcement. And for getting the smooth surface.

Anybody got experience with epoxy?

If I get tired of simbuilding, I can turn my shell upside down and attach an Evinrude. Then I have a cool boat:D

Sorry Ivar, I missed this post.

I have had quite a bit of experience with it, I have never seen it Crack. One of the nice parts is though, it is not being exposed to the harsh outdoor elements. I can't exactly put an evenrude on the back of mine, but It does the trick for simming.

I haven't seen the roof crack, however keep in mind I am only using 1 coat of cloth. and 3 coats of resin. So it isn't brittle, it holds it's shape well, but is a little flexible. You can push on it and see it move slightly, but its still strong.

Westozy
07-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Hi guys, just another thought about using steel, see this pic http://www.mycockpit.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1469 The roof structure is entirely supported by the windshield frame work and is good for supporting about 150Kg.

If you can cut wood ok I assume you can cut steel aswel, all that is needed is some accurate marking out and a hacksaw. Even if you can't weld you can cut out the pieces and take them to someone who can. I made my entire roof frame in about 4.5 hours. 3 hours cutting the steel and 1.5 hours welding it together. If you cut out the parts you would only have to pay a welder for a couple of hours max.

Don't get me wrong, these timber constructions here are amazing and I would love to have a shell the same, but like I said, my steelwork took 4.5 hours including painting - job done!

Regards, Gwyn

Trevor Hale
07-04-2007, 07:50 PM
Some people have all the skill eh Gwyn. LOL

You have the engineering talent. For me to get all the angles the same, It would take me 4.5 weeks not 4.5 hours. Ask someone who built my flap and spoiler leavers :)

Westozy
07-05-2007, 08:34 AM
I've been thinking about doing a steel frame kit which has the yokes and rudders fitted and attached to potentiometers, just add your own hardware - MIPs, O/Hs, consoles and seats etc. I have a pro welder interested in helping me with the design. Imagine your simulator base and roof structure arriving in a box ready to bolt together like a kid's swing set. That's what simland needs!

Gwyn

Trevor Hale
07-05-2007, 08:48 AM
Now your talking... Hook me up LOL

JBaymore
07-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Trevor
The next door welding shop did an aluminum frame for my overheads for $CA120!! not exactly expensive.

WOW! My local welding shop I use for my business. A simple project would cost me more than that. I'd estimate that an aluminum frame for a whole cockpit from them would cost me about $5000 - $7000 to weld up.

You should go into the business of assembling cockpit frames for simpits! ;)

best,

...................john

Michael Carter
07-05-2007, 10:24 AM
I have to agree. Several years ago I had a 4" steel pipe coupler welded to a 1/4" steel 15"x15" plate for my refractor mount.

$135 for about a 30 minute job. I can imagine what this same company would charge to weld up a cockpit frame.

Shops make a lot of money around these parts.

Jackpilot
07-05-2007, 10:59 AM
Hey Guys you live in the wrong place....c'mon here.
No jokes, I live in the country, five miles from a very small village and people around are just plain farmers with limited means which I guess caps the "market prices".

I agree that aluminum is expensive ... I go to a window frame manufacturer and get scrap pieces for peanuts. Most of the time I find what I need.
But for a shell, steel pipe is fine, weight is NOT a factor.

http://www.northernflightsim.com/ does a very good job at that, price is reasonable but shipping is an issue.

JBaymore
07-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Jackpilot,

That's what it USED to be like here in the part of southern NH that I live in. You are right........ when there is still a good agricultural base in the area, finding reasonable work for stuff like welding, carpentry, plumbing, electricians, and such is still possible.

30 years here and it is rapidly turning into suburbia. Prices for everything going thru the roof. Completely changing the character of the area.... and the reasons my wife and I moved here in the first place. Glad I own 3 acres...... still a BIT of buffer from what is happening around me.

But being a woodfiring potter, I suspect that sometime in the not too distant future I'm going to have problems with my kiln :?. Sort of like my neighbor's chickens (-see below).

Right down the street from my place (River Bend Pottery) was a little old guy who made maple suryp (wood fired at first) and did some small scale farming. You could always get him to mow your field or till your garden either for a trade of goods or for a reasonable fee. Slowly the wood fire evaporators changed over to oil fired. Some of the people nearby subdivided land, and what was other farmland turned into houses on about 2 acre lots. Then new people with the houses complained about his "free range" chickens roaming.

Eventually the town re-zoned the area into 1/2 acre zoning lots! The developers won. He HATED the changes happening, and fought such development all the time.

Making a long story short...... about two years ago he died. Then his OWN family then took the former strawberry and potatoe field parcel across the street from my place and subdivided it into 3 house lots (they wanted 4 but the town held the line on some wetlands).

He must be spinning in his grave. :roll:

Anyway....... count your blessings. Sad to watch, really.

best,

......................john

ak49er
07-05-2007, 08:23 PM
Ivar, have you posted the plans you mentioned before? I really like your design and would like to emulate it.

Jackpilot
07-06-2007, 09:57 AM
Jackpilot,

That's what it USED to be like here in the part of southern NH that I live in.
best,

......................john

Understand what you mean..I lived and worked in Montreal for 20 years, sold the skyrocketing taxes suburban house and bought a 150 acres farm cash with the money.
Only problem: keeping a lady here, already lost two gone back to citylife.

But lets get back to real biz!!!!!

Having the darn shell built up!!!!

All the best John.

ivar hestnes
07-06-2007, 10:33 AM
Ivar, have you posted the plans you mentioned before? I really like your design and would like to emulate it.

I have not made any plans for the shell. Built almost without any drawings. But I am thinking of making some plans. Will absolutely upload then. But thats several weeks of work to get it right so it is not an priorited task for me yet.

Summer here now:p

But are working a little bit in the basement anyway:)

Have covered roof and base with one layer plywood. One more layer to go.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c380/vrinsk/sim-bygging3033.jpg

Razzaq
05-21-2008, 05:47 AM
wow... great work ak49er

i would like to say it a great place for the information and links for the people with the relevant interest / work..

warvet
05-21-2008, 09:28 AM
Razz,
A little correction my good friend Ivar built that work of art cockpit and it is indeed beautiful not AK49er, hes the one wishing he had :) thats why he was asking Ivar for the plans to hopefully someday build the same sort of format. Hope that clears it up. Im sure AK49er would never want to take credit for work he didn't do himself he's a good guy that way ;). Good luck with your building Razz and welcome to the hobby.

Kind regards
Tim
A340
Canada

droddis
06-03-2008, 04:05 PM
Ok I finally got off the computer and into the garage to start work on my cockpit (about time too). I spent a day with the tools and started on the shell.
Its no way near as good as ivar's but i dont have the patience or funds. I am building on a VERY tight budget. My carpentry skills are very poor, so no laughing, but i always do my best and thats all you can do.

Hoping to get some more done this week, weather permitting.

So anyway heres the pics, and dont be too hard.

David

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00055.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00056.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00057.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00058.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00059.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00060.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/IMG00061.jpg

ivar hestnes
06-03-2008, 05:05 PM
I think you have a very good start there. The proportions look good. And dont you worry about your skills. You are doing alright:)

Most important is that you get the result you want. And it is the inside that counts anyway:) Thats where you will spend the quality time.

Good luck on your progress.

orwell84
06-03-2008, 05:28 PM
Droddis. I would be very interested in using a copy of your plans if you have completed them. Thanks.

Michael Carter
06-03-2008, 10:57 PM
I think that looks very good, and like Ivar said, the proportions look correct. It's ten times better than what a lot of us have which is nothing as far as a shell is concerned.

It's funny that this thread resurfaced when it did. Just this morning before work I was looking at Ivar's photos of his shell.

I'm really starting to get the shell bug and I too would appreciate any plans anyone can draw up for a shell. I'd be willing to pay money for them too. As long as it's wood.

droddis
06-04-2008, 06:22 AM
I drew up plans for the curves with the radius and cut them out of 18mm MDF, Its a bit hard to draw and cut them on the board. I then have the measurements of where I position the pieces for them in plan format, but to join the pieces together you will need to work it out in stitu.

When i get on my other computer i'll upload images of the dimensions of the curves and plans.

In total you'll need 2 sheets of 8' x 4' MDF for the curves then whatever timber or MDF in my case you want in between.

warvet
06-04-2008, 04:21 PM
Im a wood guy too,
I have a fully operational overhead and it attached no problem. When doing wiring many times I stand on the Sim and it doesnt even make a groan and im 200lbs. So for cost and ease of build its wood fer me 100%. Plus wood can be modified and replaced with removal of a few screws and couple chunks of spare lumber, steel needs welding, cutting etc much more complex. JMO

Tim
A340
Canada

vidarf
06-04-2008, 07:48 PM
Most houses in norway is made from wood. It's just a question of having strong supports in the right places, and you're all set. No need for steel, although if you CAN do it then by all means go ahead! :) You don't need steel all the way thoug. A steel support structure with "legs" at the back, the middle of the front and between the A and B windows will certainly be more than adequate.

Unless of course you're going to actually fly that darn thing. Just be sure to watch the Mythbusters episode on Discovery: "10.000 foot drop". They hoisted a section of an actual fuselage high enough to get it to terminal velocity (the fastest speed it can reach before physics take control) and dropped it. The sound when that thingy hits the ground is both frightening and hillarious at the same time! BWOOONNNGGG! :D

droddis
06-04-2008, 08:44 PM
PLEASE PLEASE!!! don't start the debate again!! Wood vs. Steel. :shock:

David

vidarf
06-05-2008, 02:36 PM
I didn't. I just gave the answer! :cool::cool::cool: